CN GP9 PhIII and GP18

Hi guys,

My first post here - so here goes:

I've just managed to get hold of a Proto 2000 model of a GP18 lettered as CN #4346, in 'noodle' livery. From what I've managed to find out this is a bit strange - #4346 should be a Phase III GP9, and be on Flexicoil trucks.

So; have P2K made an error in choosing the subject for their model (were any GP18s actually supplied to CN?). And (maybe more importantly) were there any PhIII GP9s with Blomberg trucks?

In short, is there a prototype (or reasonably easy conversion) for this model into a loco I can use on a 1970's-set layout?

Thought I'd start with an easy one before I start asking about things like FPA4s or rebuilt F-units...

Many thanks for your help/interest,

Steph

Well..I cannot recall CN getting any GP18's..the GTW did (GTW 4700-4707, 4950-4952).
Could you post a photo of the model?
Dave C

Steph Dale wrote:
I've just managed to get hold of a Proto 2000 model of a GP18 lettered as CN #4346, in 'noodle' livery. From what I've managed to find out this is a bit strange - #4346 should be a Phase III GP9, and be on Flexicoil trucks.

So; have P2K made an error in choosing the subject for their model (were any GP18s actually supplied to CN?). And (maybe more importantly) were there any PhIII GP9s with Blomberg trucks?

In short, is there a prototype (or reasonably easy conversion) for this model into a loco I can use on a 1970's-set layout?

First off, many model manufacturers will make a very generic model of the unit and paint scheme for the era. By generic, I mean the most common parts and details found on most all orders for that unit (say GP9 or GP18). GP9 production stretched from 1954 to 1962. GP18 production was pretty short: 1959-1962. As you can see these models overlapped each other.

That said; CN 4346 is a Phase 3 GP9 equipped with Flexicoils. Note that the railroad didn't use the term "phase;" railfans coined that term.

For your information CN Lines SIG has a wonderful website and 2 pdfs data books covering what was available by September 1964 and December 1974. Link is: http://cnlines.ca/CNcyclopedia/loco/dbook.php

According to these data books, CN had GP9's with both Flexicoils and Blombergs. CN subsidiary GTW had GP18's (by 9/1964).

By 12/1974, CN still had GP9's with Flexicoils, but some units had been retired by then (wrecks). CN 4346 is still on the roster; remember CN rebuilt quite a number of these units.

A note on Phase 3 GP9's and GP18's. Their exteriors look real similar and depending on some orders the only difference being the radiator fan shape and type of radiator grill coverings.

Matt,

Thanks for the sanity check and the links; I was wondering whether I was going nuts with this loco or not!

One way or another it's going to require a re-build then I guess or I could use the chassis for a GP9mr kit...

Steph

The wise Matt K Dettman noted,

"A note on Phase 3 GP9's and GP18's. Their exteriors look real similar and depending on some orders the only difference being the radiator fan shape and type of radiator grill coverings."


I thought the same. But don't look at me, I'm an admitted ALCohaulic and not that well versed on EMD units.

By the way, Steph, welcome to the Canadian National forum and to Railroad,net in general. I hope we can help you with any questions you may have.

Matt, Komachi,

Well, in model form there doesn't seem to be much else to it other than the grilles (thankfully the parts are easy to get hold of to convert the P2K GP18 to a GP9). At least for a 'typical' PhIII GP9...

Only in this instance it sounds like I'll need a host of bits and pieces (including a new chassis!) to build this specific loco. And now I know that some of the significant details are wrong, I'm wondering about the dynamic brake and high hood.

That GP9mr is getting closer to the top of the wish/build list...

Dave C,

Here's a quick pic - I'll leave it up for a week or so...



Steph

Thanks for the pic..the model is incorrect..an "easy" fix though.
Dave C

Dave C,

I'd be interested to know what you mean by

the model is incorrect..an "easy" fix though.

What are the specific bits that are incorrect? I've 'got' the fans, dynamic brake vents, radiator vents, bell, horns and handbrake (all associated with converting from a GP18 to late GP9, plus Canadian specific details). Anything else?

What about the trucks? I've not yet turned up a picture of #4346 and until I do I'm not sure what to do with this model as it stands.

Thoughts (etc.) are still very welcome...

Steph

Mostly just the radiator grills. (See pic)
Dave C
<img src="http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cn/cn4348dsa.jpg" width="333" height="129"></img>
Click to view full size

The rad grills are the big one...but they're an easy swap with the right part (made by Details Associates..."GP9 grilles" or something) The ones on the Proto GP18 pop right out. Paint the new ones black and glue them in.

The fans...it has the correct size, but the model has the later shrouded fans found on GP18's. You can live with the ones it has, replace them with 48' earlier-type fans (again, I believe Details Associates makes them) or cut down the existing fan shrouds and touch them up with black paint.

The side louvers (vents on the long hood), not much you can do about them...but don't worry, there hasn't been a model made with the correct CN louvers yet. This is a minor detail.

Fuel tanks...easiest compromise would be to pull off the fuel tank (pops right off, stuck on with double-sided tape on the model) and cut it in half so it's smaller, use some styrene to touch up the ends and stick it on. You'll never get the full "see under the unit effect" without some frame milling as the frame projects down there. Thing is, the motor is mounted in that section and if you mill (cut) it off you'll have the bottom of the motor sticking out. If you want to go this route, mill the frame and custom-mount the motor higher up in the unit (not as hard as it sounds). You can do this if you discard the P2K's giant weight, otherwise you won't be able to mount the motor higher. Stick-on weights are a good substitute.

Trucks...a few units had their flexicoils swapped for Bombergs over their lifetime. 4391 (another unit P2K did for their Ph.3 GP9) had flexicoils in 1970 in the Noodle scheme as 4150, and Bomberg B's in 1977 in the Zebra scheme. Always have a photo of the model in the time period you're modelling. You can settle for the current Bombergs, or try modifying a pair of Athearn Flexicoils found under their SW1500, which shouldn't be too hard.

Other minor details are spark arrestors, all weather windows (one on the engineers' side) and sunshades (one on the conductors' side) bell on the long hood, and adding a brakewheel, all of which are easy with the help of detailed parts available at your LHS.

The P2K model is an excellent one, about the best out-of-the-box GP9/18 out there. The shell detail and paint are superb, and the drive runs great. I myself have a bunch of P2K GP7/9/18's for CP, as well as a CN one. The shell modifications for an accurate CN unit are somewhat easily done (other then the louvers with are a minor point), thing is you may have to live with some compromises with the chassis, fuel tanks and trucks.

Oh...4346 is still running in Quebec as AMT 1310, one of the few sold for commuter service.

Ahhh - the Proto 2000 Geep. One of my alltime favorite models, I have too many of them.

Some good advice posted so far. All I can add is - it's YOUR model. It completely depends on you how far you want to go to model the prototype.

First off - when LifeLike came out with the GP18 in about '91 or so, Canadian Hobbycraft commissioned a run of Canadian paint schemes. At the time it was the most accurate early Geep model ever, and a GP18 isn't all that different externally from a ph3 GP9, so CHC figured the overall accuracy of the model combined with RTR Canadian paint schemes was worth the slight inaccuracies.

Now, back to your model. Given your location, you could take that Geep out of the box and run it as-is, and most people wouldn't know the difference. But again, how far you go is up to you.

My advice only, from here on...

To capture the essence of a CN GP9, start with your GP18 and add the DA or Smokey Valley GP9 rad screens. Remove the rooftop fans and modify the housings to remove the shrouding, then reinstall. Add a CN high-mount bell on the long end and add some Miniatures By Eric exhaust stacks. Paint as necessary and lightly weather. Add Kadees and you're done.


If you wish to go further, you could always replace the trucks with switcher trucks, do the fuel tank modifications, add rooftop piping, remove the clunky movable sunshades and add scale size ones, etc etc etc. Refer to www.cnlines.com which has a good writeup on CN GP9's and the differences with a standard Geep. (It's in CNcyclopedia -> Fleet Histories and Pghotos for more).

EDIT: The model, in the paint job you have it in, is accurate from the mid 60's to the early 80's - quite the time frame. If you model a newer time frame, let me heartily recommend the GP9RM shell from Kaslo - it can be found on Ebay in the 95 dollar range. You can reuse the Proto shell, and just send me the shell you have now as a thank-you

@ W.E.Coyote - Thanks for the quick run-down of the changes to make, it's true that with parts from Cannon, DA, DW, Smokey Valley, etc. the detail above the frame can be made either good or 'useable'. Not available at my local hobby store though; I have to order them into the UK - this is why I'm trying to do my research now. The trucks are still the main concern though...

@ graftonterminalrr - Like you I've got a few of the P2K GP7,9,18s. As you say, in the UK most people wouldn't know (or care) that I'd be running a GP18, painted up as a GP9, in CN paint. I would though! And it's cool to be able to catch out the odd soul at a show .

I'm now seriously considering getting the Kaslo Shops kit for the GP9rm and putting it on the chassis from this model. Thanks for the offer to take the body shell off my hands; I'll keep it though - just in case I turn up a cheap SW1500 at a show

Thanks to everyone for their help with this model.

Steph