Cardinal discussion

I still find it hard to believe that there are not enough Superliners around to make the Cardinal a bi-level train once again. But then... it hit me. Perhaps the reason why it remains single level is so that it can run to New York and provide a second frequency to Chicago, albeit only 3x a week. Didn't this occur about the time the Three Rivers was cut?

It would seem to make more sense though to restore the Three Rivers or Broadway on their NYP-CHI route via Pennsylvania, and make the Cardinal a WAS-CIN-CHI train again. We've all tried to figure out where Amtrak is hiding its Viewliners (keeping them for a rainy day (literally) no doubt) and it would seem that with all that has been lost as far as sleeping service in the NE, that there'd be enough to put together at least one or two more trainsets. But I digress....

When I see this train, the Cardinal at Trenton, it has three Amfleet II coaches, Amfleet diner-lite, and a lone Viewliner. With all due respect Mr. Norman, I just can't figure out how this consist beats out the consist of when this train ran with a Superliner train set with much more coach and sleeping car capacity (especially the later).

One would think that if this train has gained patronage by being extended to NYC, it would have at least had another Amfleet II coach car added and perhaps another Viewliner (which constantly sells out as it is). Otherwise, it has a fixed capacity and less caoacity than what it had when operating as a Superliner train set originating in Washington DC. And before it was converted back to a single level train set, Amtrak finally did align a [Northeast] Regional train to connect with the Superliner Cardinal at Washington DC.

Amtrak toyed with the idea of converting this train back to a Superliner train set, most importantly a train set that includes a Sightseer Lounge car, to try and draw a tourist crowd along its scenic route. But it would indeed originate/terminate in Washington DC. They toyed with this idea because they went back in time and saw that it supposedly had miscalculated the Cardinal's "growth" when extended to NYC, and if returned to a Washington terminus, how could it make sure patronage was maintained.

Now this differs from the daily Silver Meteor, for example, that operates with 4 Amfleet II coaches, three Viewliners, diner, Amfleet II lounge etc. If this train was truncated at Washington DC, then this consist may suffer in trying to fill it from just Washington DC south, and hoping for that connecting Regional train to/from NYC. That notion I agree would be a bad idea.

The Cardinal is partially filling the void of the Three Rivers (3x per week only) along the NEC from Newark to Philly for those that want a direct connection to Chicago - but although direct, it's a long route with not many amenities.

Yes, Amtrak needs the Three Rivers or a re-launched Broadway Limited - largely to redeem the Lake Shore Limited that has gone downhill as of late. As a separate train, it could be a separate "clean-up train" and allow the Lake Shore Limited return to a better eastbound schedule. Even if a separate "Three Rivers" if you will was combined with the Capitol Limited at Pittsburgh, continuing on to Chicago/NYC, this would (1) build back ridership lost in this market, (2) offer a a much needed second frequency between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh and (3) allow through cars to/from Chicago at Pittsburgh.

If Amtrak wanted to put sleeping class car service back in place on the NEC, I believe it could. The numbers prove they have enough Viewliners IF they wanted to restore such a service, but Amtrak has chose note to, for whatever reason. That's almost a separate issue.

I believe there is a better way to run the cardinal route .
i would have a daily amfleet train on the current schedule from New York to Huntington W.V . Or another nearby town if more suitable for overnite stabling .
Then , for the 3 days a week we have now , i would have a connecting superliner train from Chicago , doing a same day turn . In theroy only requiring one sleeper , but 2 may be needed to protect .

I like an Idea I have heard to have the cardinal continue as a single level train and have it operate on an overnight schedule between was-bos. This would bring in LOTS of revenue between WAS-Bos.

Yes, this was one of my other crazy ideas, where the Cardinal would basically "hold up" a little bit in Washington DC before making the ride up the corridor. Problem is it would either arrive around midnight into NYC northbound for example, and then wait to depart so it could make an early morning arrival into Boston.

no it could be held up in washington and they could add some padding between chicago and washington

Well I broke my promise that I would never ride the Cardinal until they put descent single level viewing car or a Superliner Sightseer Lounge back on this route. However, I rode the eastbound Cardinal last week after a quick connection from a western long distance train.

I have to say, the Cardinal was certainly a very enjoyable trip with lots of great scenery. However, I was glad at least I had a Viewliner bedroom so I could take advantage of the double row of windows for viewing - despite the second row of windows needed replacing as they were in horrible shape.

I will admit the scenery is great, but the equipment assigned to the Cardinal is inadequate to do the route any justice in trying to view the passing scenery. It certainly provides basic transportation to some remote areas of the East.

The Amfleet Diner Lite, overall, had descent food (I was surprised by this, as compared to the Lake Shore Limited). But the design of the Amfleet Diner Lite with the booth seating is just ridiculous. I don't know how they could have messed up that bad with aligning the booths adjacent to the windows. Some booths had a) no window at your table b) limited viewing due to placing the booth too close to the edge of the window, or c) cramped viewing through half to 1/4 of the window. Isn't the joy of dining on a train having the ability to look out the window and see the passing scenery! And this is in an Amfleet II with the larger windows nonetheless.

This little train - three Amfleet II coaches, a Amfleet Diner Lite, and Viewliner made it quite an intimate experience. The coaches were more than adequate for the trip. We dropped two empty Horizon coaches in Indianapolis for the next day's Hoosier State. Although I am sure they would have been occupied if the Amfleets were full with Hosier State passengers.

The Viewliner was packed nearly the whole way. This begs the question as to why Amtrak won't add a second Viewliner on this route. We see it from the reservation system time and time again, but seeing it in person puts another perspective on it. In the bedrooms of the Viewliner, the chairs opposite the couch were taken out for some odd reason. Not sure if this is to allow for the storage of luggage since this train doesn't have a baggage car or what. This just seemed very odd. Most Viewliners now have a seat (opposite the couch) that pulls out and can be folded up against the wall. I would think that would work well for the bedrooms, especially being occupied by two people - rather than having both people sit on the couch and lean over each other to see out the windows. And bedrooms don't come cheap! The Viewliner I was on had its cushions recently replaced (although the cushioning didn't hold up to well) and new carpeting, but the wear and tear on the walls and such were still horrible on this Viewliner - let alone the second tier of windows as mentioned above. The sleeping car attendant was very nice and attentive.

I think there were maybe two people who boarded in Chicago and were going all the way to New York. Most in the sleeping car were going to destinations PRIOR to Washington DC. I took the Cardinal just for the experience, rather than the Capitol Limited or Lake Shore Limited. Some people boarded in West Virginia just to use the Viewliner roomette as a "day room." This still makes me wonder if this train should be terminated in Washington DC and some how returned to Superliner equipment, as there was a huge turnover of people at Washington DC, with few heading further north to New York City. A transfer at Washington DC to New York could still make this happen for those boarding at intermediate stops looking for a final destination of New York City. A cross platform change could easily be arranged I would think. Most passengers in the coaches got out and went into Union Station to grab something quick to eat and bring back to the train any way.

The trip from Charlottesville to Culpepper seemed a lot rougher from the last time I rode this route. I believe this stretch of track is also shared by the Crescent, and soon to be shared with a new Lynchburg to Washington DC train. I hope they come up with some track repairs for this section of track.

Again, the scenery was just spectacular, but Amtrak's single level equipment on this route basically ruined what could be a "great" experience. Amtrak could certainly market this route to regular travellers and to tour groups much more effectively if it had the right equipment. Until then, I wouldn't take this route from Chicago to the East Coast unless it was perhaps aboard a private rail car, I was destined for some intermediate point only served by the Cardinal, or the addition/change of a car that offered "better viewing from the rails." I think Amtrak could cultivate some great patronage on the Cardinal with some marketing and the right equipment (i.e. essentially the return some how of a Superliner Sightseer Lounge Car and terminating the train in Washington DC with cross platform change of trains). The three Amfleet II's and Viewliner were hardly full north of Washington DC.

one would think the addition of at least a transition dorm / sleeper and a sight seer form Chicago to Washington would be doable .

good thought. I think that the addition of a cafe car on this train would also help, I can only think of those +/- 30 A1 cafe's that we are converting into coaches. I think a 2nd viewliner for the cardinal is a lower priority than improvement to the food service and improvement in equipment (IE upgrading to a superliner train).

jp1822 wrote:The trip from Charlottesville to Culpepper seemed a lot rougher from the last time I rode this route. I believe this stretch of track is also shared by the Crescent, and soon to be shared with a new Lynchburg to Washington DC train. I hope they come up with some track repairs for this section of track.

When I rode aboard the Crescent a few years ago, that stretch was nice and smooth at 79 mph. Could you tell if they still run at or near 79 mph there?

I believe that section of track from Clifton Forge, VA to Charlottesville to Orange, VA is the former CSX North Mountain Sub which is now leased by the Buckingham Branch Railroad. I rode 50 from Charlottesville to Washington DC back in November 2007 and do not remember whether it was 79mph the whole way, but do remember meeting a few westbounds. It is single-track, and heading eastbound, 50 often has meets with westbound CSX empty coal trains. In Orange, the Cardinal then gets on the Norfolk Southern tracks to Culpeper.

The Crescent runs on the Norfolk Southern tracks directly from Culpeper to Charlottesville. NS and CSX meet at a diamond in Charlottesville.

Matt Johnson wrote:

jp1822 wrote:The trip from Charlottesville to Culpepper seemed a lot rougher from the last time I rode this route. I believe this stretch of track is also shared by the Crescent, and soon to be shared with a new Lynchburg to Washington DC train. I hope they come up with some track repairs for this section of track.

When I rode aboard the Crescent a few years ago, that stretch was nice and smooth at 79 mph. Could you tell if they still run at or near 79 mph there?

We were at a crawl doing around 30 mph and I couldn't imagine doing 79 mph in this section. However, maybe it's less bumpy of a ride at the faster speed!

nikon01 wrote:

Matt Johnson wrote:

jp1822 wrote:The trip from Charlottesville to Culpepper seemed a lot rougher from the last time I rode this route. I believe this stretch of track is also shared by the Crescent, and soon to be shared with a new Lynchburg to Washington DC train. I hope they come up with some track repairs for this section of track.

When I rode aboard the Crescent a few years ago, that stretch was nice and smooth at 79 mph. Could you tell if they still run at or near 79 mph there?

I believe that section of track from Clifton Forge, VA to Charlottesville to Orange, VA is the former CSX North Mountain Sub which is now leased by the Buckingham Branch Railroad. I rode 50 from Charlottesville to Washington DC back in November 2007 and do not remember whether it was 79mph the whole way, but do remember meeting a few westbounds. It is single-track, and heading eastbound, 50 often has meets with westbound CSX empty coal trains. In Orange, the Cardinal then gets on the Norfolk Southern tracks to Culpeper.

The Crescent runs on the Norfolk Southern tracks directly from Culpeper to Charlottesville. NS and CSX meet at a diamond in Charlottesville.

That would make more sense - that we were on the Buckingham Branch Railroad. It just seems ironic that the Charlottesville train station is served by both the Crescent and Cardinal but on two different railways? There's no way to re-route it on the NS at Charlottesville? I do remember hitting smooth track just before coming into Culpeper - and two mainline tracks joining in.

Maybe Amtrak could put on Dome 10031 during the summer months. It would raise the "classiness" of the train without requiring a Superliner consist. Of course, there is only one dome on the entire roster, so that might be harder than running a Superliner train.