• Candidate Positions on Amtrak/HSR

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
Jeff Smith wrote:There is a social benefit, and an economic impact benefit, although you could say you could calculate both in dollars in better access to jobs, thus lowering social welfare, etc., as well as less time stuck in traffic.


Amtrak doesn't provide any of those things. You might apply those argument to mass transit or commuter rail, but not intercity rail, outside of affluent long distance commuters.

Moreover, there doesn't seem to be a disagreement between parties as the importance of passenger rail on Amtrak's core Northeast Corridor, regardless of the tangibility or intangibility of the social benefits. The Republicans specifically reference the NE Corridor in their platform, which comes as a surprise, since the Democrats don't.
Jeff Smith wrote:I point to Atlanta as a top-tier city starting to lose out due to the traffic concerns.
Atlanta's problem is that it's becoming the Detroit of Georgia, not that it only has a single daily Amtrak train. For a number of reasons, Atlanta is dominated by a single political party and the elected officials aren't typically held accountable by the voters. So you have catastrophic developments, such as the 42% property tax increase back in 2009, which still hasn't been reversed by the current mayor. Atlanta is in trouble, and for a change, the voters recently rejected a massive sales tax increase for a rail transit system that was of very little benefit to the community.
  by Bob Roberts
 
goodnightjohnwayne wrote:
Atlanta's problem is that it's becoming the Detroit of Georgia,
-- entirely off topic and, as such, I welcome its future deletion -- EDIT: I was referring to my post which lacks any rail content.

Really?

The city of Atlanta is seeing significant growth in its affluent population and the substantial development that accompanies such migration. Atlanta is however hurting in the suburbs where the twin toll of foreclosure and congestion have made many outlying areas unattractive to the middle class. Based on population change I suppose you could call Atlanta "Detroit inside-out" but, having spent time in both cities recently, I don't think any comparison to Detroit is apt. IMO Atlanta is much more like Phoenix, except Atlanta lacks ANY plan to accommodate growth.
Last edited by Bob Roberts on Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
Bob Roberts wrote:
goodnightjohnwayne wrote:
Atlanta's problem is that it's becoming the Detroit of Georgia,
-- entirely off topic and, as such, I welcome its future deletion --

Really?

The city of Atlanta is seeing significant growth in its affluent population and the substantial development that accompanies such migration. Atlanta is however hurting in the suburbs where the twin toll of foreclosure and congestion have made many outlying areas unattractive to the middle class. Based on population change I suppose you could call Atlanta "Detroit inside-out" but having spent time in both cities recently I don't think any comparison to Detroit is reasonable. IMO Atlanta is much more like Phoenix, except Atlanta lacks ANY plan to accommodate growth.
Hey, the moderator brought it up and I referenced it in terms of passenger rail and the failed rail related referendum.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/state-regi ... tax/nQXfq/

There's a place for expanded commuter rail, mass transit, light rail, and yes, expanded intercity rail in Atlanta. T-SPLOST failed, at least in part, because of a lack of confidence in the local leadership, and that infamous 42% tax increase is probably still weighing heavily on minds and wallets.

And for the record, Atlanta would be well served by addition Amtrak service.
  by Jeff Smith
 
John Wayne has a good point on the difference between the benefits of Amtrak vs. commuter service, although I do think there are some benefits to Amtrak service. The NEC of course, certain other corridors as well. I would not, though compare Atlanta to Detroit. Atlanta definitely has its problem areas, but it not undergoing by any stretch de-population. As Mr. Roberts notes, the problem is a lack of a plan. And I can also vouch that the suburbs were hit extremely hard; I was lucky to get out of my house there with only a slight out-of-pocket expense, and we had a few foreclosures in our neighborhood.
  by Tommy Meehan
 
goodnightjohnwayne wrote:Moreover, there doesn't seem to be a disagreement between parties as the importance of passenger rail on Amtrak's core Northeast Corridor, regardless of the tangibility or intangibility of the social benefits. The Republicans specifically reference the NE Corridor in their platform, which comes as a surprise, since the Democrats don't.
Well make no mistake there is a h-u-g-e difference between the two parties regarding Amtrak. The Republican platform very clearly states it wants to phase out Amtrak and turn the NEC over to a private operator. The Obama Administration is already advancing a plan to expand Amtrak and build a high speed passenger rail network.

Goodnightjohnwayne you're not a paid Tea Party consultant by any chance are you? Because parts of your messages read like pure propaganda.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote: For a number of reasons, Atlanta is dominated by a single political party and the elected officials aren't typically held accountable by the voters. So you have catastrophic developments, such as the 42% property tax increase back in 2009...
.
  by SouthernRailway
 
Tommy Meehan wrote:
goodnightjohnwayne wrote:Moreover, there doesn't seem to be a disagreement between parties as the importance of passenger rail on Amtrak's core Northeast Corridor, regardless of the tangibility or intangibility of the social benefits. The Republicans specifically reference the NE Corridor in their platform, which comes as a surprise, since the Democrats don't.
Well make no mistake there is a h-u-g-e difference between the two parties regarding Amtrak. The Republican platform very clearly states it wants to phase out Amtrak and turn the NEC over to a private operator. The Obama Administration is already advancing a plan to expand Amtrak and build a high speed passenger rail network.

Goodnightjohnwayne you're not a paid Tea Party consultant by any chance are you? Because parts of your messages read like pure propaganda.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote: For a number of reasons, Atlanta is dominated by a single political party and the elected officials aren't typically held accountable by the voters. So you have catastrophic developments, such as the 42% property tax increase back in 2009...
.
There is a large difference in the parties' platforms about Amtrak, but the parties' actions speak louder than words. If you look at the parties' actions, there are some pro-Amtrak Republicans and some anti-Amtrak Republicans, with the "anti" larger than the "pro". There are some pro-Amtrak Democrats, but some anti-Amtrak Democrats, with the "pro" larger than the "anti".

The Democratic Senate didn't lift a finger to fully fund HSR in recent years after Obama's HSR program petered out, for example.

GOP Governor Bob McDonnell in Virginia has been busy expanding Amtrak service in his state (and I find it odd that he served on the GOP platform committee yet allowed the platform's Amtrak language to stand). GOP Rep. John Mica can be pretty harsh on Amtrak, but he's a big supporter of SunRail in Florida. North Carolina's next governor, Republican Pat McCrory, is a major rail supporter. Even Mitt Romney was a strong proponent of commuter rail and other transit when he was governor of Masssachusetts.

As I've said over and over, Amtrak supporters on the left who make Amtrak into a partisan issue, painting Republicans as uniformly "bad" and Democrats as uniformly "good", are denying reality and are harming Amtrak, by alienating an entire political party.
  by Station Aficionado
 
Hmm. I remember when Pat McCrory was the next governor of North Carolina back in 2008. Must be a permanent position. I know I'm treading on thin ice, but I would suggest that it was anti-rail GOP politicians in 2010 who made passenger rail a "partisan issue." An expansion of/more money for passenger rail was proposed by the current occupant of the White House. Therefore, it had to be opposed--it's a "cult," after all. I live in Virginia--I know that not all Republicans oppose passenger rail, but the assertion that it is those on the left who have made it a partisan issue is just too much.
  by Bob Roberts
 
Station Aficionado wrote:Hmm. I remember when Pat McCrory was the next governor of North Carolina back in 2008. Must be a permanent position. I know I'm treading on thin ice, but I would suggest that it was anti-rail GOP politicians in 2010 who made passenger rail a "partisan issue." An expansion of/more money for passenger rail was proposed by the current occupant of the White House. Therefore, it had to be opposed--it's a "cult," after all. I live in Virginia--I know that not all Republicans oppose passenger rail, but the assertion that it is those on the left who have made it a partisan issue is just too much.
In North Carolina we witnessed the 2010 (very right leaning) legislature pass a law requiring NCDOT to get legislative approval before accepting any rail grants or loans from the federal government. While the rationale was sound (the legislature wanted reassurance that the state would not be on the hook for maintenance costs for many years in the future) the legislation ONLY referred to rail (and not roads, air, water, telecommunications or teleporters). Singling out rail for special treatment suggested to me that the right had a particular dislike of the mode (and previous democratic legislatures never had a problem with funding rail as a mode)

McCrory was pro rail-transit as mayor of Charlotte but his recent rhetoric suggests he is now taking his cues from the far right side of his party (see the budget debate this past fiscal year about the state match for the blue line extension)
  by SouthernRailway
 
Station Aficionado wrote:Hmm. I remember when Pat McCrory was the next governor of North Carolina back in 2008. Must be a permanent position. I know I'm treading on thin ice, but I would suggest that it was anti-rail GOP politicians in 2010 who made passenger rail a "partisan issue." An expansion of/more money for passenger rail was proposed by the current occupant of the White House. Therefore, it had to be opposed--it's a "cult," after all. I live in Virginia--I know that not all Republicans oppose passenger rail, but the assertion that it is those on the left who have made it a partisan issue is just too much.
My point is that Amtrak supporters should not tar all Republicans as "bad" and should not equate being an Amtrak supporter with being a supporter of left-wing causes. That happens pretty often, and the result is that Republicans are more likely to think, "if you have to be a Democrat to support Amtrak, then I won't support it". That's a terrible end result that will do no good for Amtrak.

I don't see that anti-rail GOP politicians in 2010 made passenger rail a partisan issue. Governors of Wisconsin, Ohio and Florida rejected Obama's rail grants, unfortunately losing high-profile projects that way. Yet GOP governors of many other states accepted them.

Unlike 2008, when he was consistently in a close battle with his opponent, Pat McCrory is 15 points ahead of his Democratic opponent, as per today's news: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/0 ... -over.html His website does not indicate any hostility to Amtrak; rather, it mentions future public investments in rail: http://www.patmccrory.com/issue/infrastructure/
  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
Tommy Meehan wrote:
goodnightjohnwayne wrote:Moreover, there doesn't seem to be a disagreement between parties as the importance of passenger rail on Amtrak's core Northeast Corridor, regardless of the tangibility or intangibility of the social benefits. The Republicans specifically reference the NE Corridor in their platform, which comes as a surprise, since the Democrats don't.
Well make no mistake there is a h-u-g-e difference between the two parties regarding Amtrak. The Republican platform very clearly states it wants to phase out Amtrak and turn the NEC over to a private operator.
It doesn't say anything of the kind. It actually says:
Amtrak continues to be, for the taxpayers, an extremely expensive railroad. The public has to subsidize every ticket nearly $50. It is long past time for the federal government to get out of way and allow private ventures to provide passenger service to the northeast corridor. The same holds true with regard to high-speed and intercity rail across the country.
Now, as to whether that means private ventures in cooperation, competition, or in replacement of Amtrak isn't clear. It is clear that Amtrak saw its biggest historical cuts in route mileage under the Carter administration, was starved of funding in the Clinton and Bush eras, and hasn't seen a substantial change in labor practices since the Reagan era. So there's room for investment, either public or private, and there is certainly room for innovation. The Republicans are actually discussing the issue, and in a way that's not altogether unfavorable to high-speed rail.



Tommy Meehan wrote: The Obama Administration is already advancing a plan to expand Amtrak and build a high speed passenger rail network
.

It's not being addressed specifically or publicly in recent months. The Democratic platform has less to say on the issue of passenger rail than the Republican platform, and some of the Democratic language might even pertain to freight rail and business interests in general.

It is clear that the term "high speed rail" was absent from DNC convention speeches, from the platform and from stump speeches, before and after the convention. It isn't being addressed, at least not on the Democratic side.

I think it's high time to realize that the polarization of a presidential election year shouldn't be taken too seriously. Democrat presidents have agreed to cuts to Amtrak. And substantial improvements have been made to Amtrak under Republican administrations. Nixon originated Amtrak, and a lot of the current rolling stock was funded under Ford, the same being true of major route expansions, that were later cut under Carter, while NE Corridor improvements were continued under Reagan and the last conventional single level coaches were ordered under the first Bush.

In an election year, it's important to remember that differences are magnified, while historical similarities are ignored. There's a lot less attention being paid to Amtrak than two decades ago. And for all of the stereotypes, no Democrat has resurrected the "Amtrak penny" gas tax idea and the Republicans lack the naive reformist sentiments of the Gingrich era, when there was a belief Amtrak could transition to self-supporting profitability with enough Roadrailers and odd route expansions. We all know better now, Democrat and Republican, Republican and Democrat.

And for the record, I still like Roadrailers.
  by David Benton
 
doe's anyone else see it as uncanny that all 3 states that rejected hsr funds are all swing states ??? . no wonder either side are not mentioning the hsr programme much .
  by Jeff Smith
 
Some food for thought: GOP calls for switching Amtrak to private sector
The platform Republicans adopted at their recent national convention included a call for full privatization and an end to subsidies for the nation’s passenger rail operator, which gobbled up almost $1.5 billion in federal funds last year.

“It is long past time for the federal government to get out of the way and allow private ventures to provide passenger service,” the platform said, arguing that taxpayers dole out almost $50 for every Amtrak ticket.

...

Even with a record 30 million passengers boarding its trains last year, Amtrak operated at a net loss of more than $450 million. The government pitched in $562 million to keep Amtrak in the black. And that’s just on the operations side, where Amtrak says it covers about 85 percent of its costs through ticket fares and fees.
and from everyone's "favorite" Amtrak nemesis:
Leading the Republican charge that the U.S. can’t bear the continued hemorrhaging is Rep. John Mica (R-Fla.), who chairs the House Transportation Committee. He plans to hold a hearing a month on Amtrak, with a session today focusing on the “monopoly mentality” on commuter rail.
I know we've talked privitization in the past, but would a Veolia, another operator, or even the Class I's bid on passenger ops? Would BNSF and it's "my secretary pays a higher rate than me" Mr. Buffett do it? Could a Class I operate the Empire Builder or Sunset Limited for a profit, or at least cheaper (with public support) than Amtrak?
  by David Benton
 
How can they have a "monopoly mentality" on commuter rail , when most commuter operations are not run by amtrak ??? .
  by Spro
 
From Today's Poughkeepsie Journal.. Not a very positive article. year 41 for Amtrak, and the endurance test continues.

WASHINGTON — Warning to Amtrak from Mitt Romney and Republicans: You're on your own.

The platform Republicans adopted at their convention included a call for full privatization and an end to subsidies for the nation's passenger rail operator, which gobbled up almost $1.5 billion in federal funds last year. Amtrak trains traveling between Albany and New York City stop in Dutchess County

Full Article Here..
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/view ... rnal.com|p
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
This is syndicated Associated Press material (AP is normally Amtrak-friendly; and are really not being unfriendly here) which was originated here by Mr. Smith:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 5#p1081426

The real downside; how many other "rags" out there are circulating this reportage - how many are in Red States with their "one a day @ 0-dark-30", if even that (take a peek at Mr. Google for an answer)?
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