Can Diesel and Electric locomotives MU?

Can we run a deisal and a electric engine on the same train? On Wire Electric Off Wire Deisal?

IT has been done and there is one currently in service, check previous posts for details on this train...

http://www.acestrain.com

buddah wrote:IT has been done and there is one currently in service, check previous posts for details on this train...

http://www.acestrain.com

was this what amtrak did with the Atlantic city express?

hi55us wrote:

buddah wrote:IT has been done and there is one currently in service, check previous posts for details on this train...

http://www.acestrain.com

was this what amtrak did with the Atlantic city express?

No. Amtrak changed engines at Shore.

Could you run an electric and diesel, while the electric draws power from the catenary and the diesel uses its primemover?

I don't think you could run them both at the same time. You've got to be running from one or the other.

By the way, saw an ACES train come through Hamilton, NJ southbound on Saturday (Aug 1). The electric had his pans down, and the diesel was doing all the work. I was a bit surprised to see that. I wonder where they made the switch?

Littleredcaboose wrote:Can we run a deisal and a electric engine on the same train? On Wire Electric Off Wire Deisal?

In southern England there is an extensive third rail electric network. At one time there was freight on it, with small freight yards accepting wagon load traffic. In the 1960s the plan was to eliminate all steam from this network. However, it was not thought suitable to electrify these freight yards. A small fleet of electro-diesel locomotives Class 73 was built to deal with this problem. However, since then all the freight yards were closed. But the locos can be used to take trains off the electrified network on to tracks without third rail. I experienced that myself once when a train going to Birmingham from Bournemouth had one (the regular class 47 loco was not available) and it used the third rail to Basingstoke and then switched on the diesel to take it Reading, where the train changed direction and added a class 47 diesel.

These locos are now getting on and are not used much but a new set of high speed trains are to be ordered soon (125 mph) which will be able to use overhead electric where it exists. Some will be wholly diesel, but a few may have electric at one end and diesel at the other end. Thus the train could travel electric from London to Edinburgh and then use diesel to Aberdeen (still not fitted with OHL). As more electrification is being planned there may be more of these dual energy trains and fewer of the diesel only versions. Power will be delivered to wheels along the train.

NellieBly wrote: By the way, saw an ACES train come through Hamilton, NJ southbound on Saturday (Aug 1). The electric had his pans down, and the diesel was doing all the work. I was a bit surprised to see that. I wonder where they made the switch?

The southbounds make the changeover at Newark because I don't think they are fully confident that the diesel will start, and it is much easier to handle such a situation when you are in Newark rather than at Shore interlocking. The northbounds change power at Shore, since a diesel failing to shut down when switched off is very very unusual, and electrics have no problem starting up as soon as the pan goes up.

Steve F45 wrote:Could you run an electric and diesel, while the electric draws power from the catenary and the diesel uses its primemover?

yes

50 years ago, give or take, the Milwaukee Road (aka CMStp&P) successfully ran diesels with their electric "Little Joe" locomotives, with an effective MU operation. This is what I believe the original poster was asking.

The problem was that the Little Joe had 40 or more 'notches' on the controller and the diesel, only 8. Somehow, the Milwaukee Road shop came up with (as I understand it) a "trick attachment" to the Little Joe controller that mimicked the controls to the diesel(s) behind, using conventional MU connections. That way, any diesels could be combined with the Joes and be run in MU to them. It could only work with the Joes in the front, not a diesel.

Today, doing an MU could actually be accomplished without an MU at all...simply using remote-control locomotives should do the trick. However, how to make the control compatible with the electric locomotive would be something the electrical engineers would have to work out.

yes it is possible. I have only done it for a short distance (in a yard) but in theory, it should work out on a main at track speed. I had an ALP44 and a Geep 40 by themselves, with no train.

The 27 pin jumpers for MU'ing are standard, and work with both the electric and diesel engines. On my RR, there are cab cars that need to communicate with diesels or electrics, so the info they send back is standard.

The 27 pin jumper is really the only thing that is needed to communicate inbetween the locos. The other hoses are for the brakes - the trainline brakes and independent brakes on the locos.

The loco can be set up like a cab car, in the sense that if it is running in deisel territory, the electric is obviously not providing any power, but it is on the leading end, so the controls have to work. The loco would be isolated or dead propulsion wise, but still the controls are active. What becomes a problem is battery power. The locos have their own power generators for their own use (usualy about 230 or 74 volts, depending on the component drawing power) and if the loco isn't producing its own power, it needs power from somewhere or the batteries will die.

With the ACES trains mentioned above, the loco that is providing propulsion power is providing Head end power, and the loco that is along for the ride, in which ever mode, diesel or electric, is getting the juice it needs from the HEP of the other loco. On the ACES trains, for example, when the diesel is powering the train, the HEP is providing power to the electric air compressor on the ALP, as well as for the headlights, controls, cab signals, etc. Same for when the diesel is along for the ride, the ALP is providing power for the headlights, contorls, etc, of the diesel.

Im not sure if there were any modifications needed to the locos for them to work this way, all I know is that it works, for the most part. There have been some issues with the ACES trains, but nothing too major, probably just underlying issues with the locomotives that are rearing their ugly heads when they are asked to do things that are a bit out of the ordinary......

Bob, the site is down, can't view pic. But im not talking about the aces service if that's what the pic was. I was asking if you can be in a diesel cab which is online and using its primemover and then have an electric coupled to it drawing power from the catenary thus both providing power to the traction motors.

The E-60 was designed specifically for MUing with diesels, it even had a standard 8 notch throttle, even though the unit itself was capable of continuous throttling. The logic basically selected one of three voltage ranges, and throttled the thyristors as required. I think > 90 was when shunting kicked in. EE's I've talked to say the 3 range thing GE did was for power factor issues.

MUing a diesel with an electric can only be done if all locomotive functions can be controlled from lead locomotive.
In case of the ACES train NJT had to add switches to the P40 diesel so pantograph can be raised lowered on ALP-44 from the P40 and the Line circuit breaker can be reset.
Operating from the Electric the diesel can only MU if the electric has a engine shutdown funtion, to shut the diesel down in case of fire or technical malfunction.


TITLE 49--TRANSPORTATION

CHAPTER II--FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

PART 229_RAILROAD LOCOMOTIVE SAFETY STANDARDS--Table of Contents

Subpart A_General

Sec. 229.13 Control of locomotives.

Except when a locomotive is moved in accordance with Sec. 229.9, whenever two or more locomotives are coupled in remote or multiple control, the propulsion system, the sanders, and the power brake system of each locomotive shall respond to control from the cab of the controlling locomotive. If a dynamic brake or regenerative brake system is in use, that portion of the system in use shall respond to control from the cab of the controlling locomotive.

Edited by a moderator (clearing a typo) 8-4-09 944PM CDT