BSL Ridge Spur + PATCO - Possible?

Wingnut wrote:After reviewing North American rail systems, the only one I found where a "spur" comes off of a main route to serve a secondary part of downtown is Denver. Ridership on the Union Station lines is much lower than the main routes down California. At least a massive expansion plan will add riders to this part of the system in the future.

The A Train main line in Queens goes to Far Rockaway; a spur goes to Ozone Park.

I consider Chicago's Skokie Swift yellow line to be a spur of the main north-south loop-Howard red line,
and Atlanta's Green line to be a spur of the main east-west blue line

WN: Good overview of the Ridge Spur stations and the attention to their detail...

I believe the change to allow a free interchange between the BSL and MFSE was instituted in 1980-before that you needed a transfer to change trains
at City Hall/15th Street...a transfer was five cents and was increased to 10 cents around that time...

MACTRAXX

1980 sounds right, Mike.

During the Philadelphia Transportation Company era, and possibly continuing into the SEPTA era, paper transfers were free, so even though there were barriers between the various subway station paid areas you didn't have to pay to change.

MACTRAXX wrote:WN: Good overview of the Ridge Spur stations and the attention to their detail...

I believe the change to allow a free interchange between the BSL and MFSE was instituted in 1980-before that you needed a transfer to change trains
at City Hall/15th Street...a transfer was five cents and was increased to 10 cents around that time...

MACTRAXX

Is it likely SEPTA got the idea of free interchange between subway lines from New York City??? In New York you could ride the entire subway system on one fare!

Patrick Boylan wrote:During the Philadelphia Transportation Company era, and possibly continuing into the SEPTA era, paper transfers were free, so even though there were barriers between the various subway station paid areas you didn't have to pay to change.

In the PTC era, at least in later years, transfers were free only outside the "Central Business District", defined as Pine (I think) to Callowhill and river to river. Within the CBD you had to buy an "exchange" for 3 cents (this when the streetcar fare was 8 cents or 2 tokens for 15 and the bus fare was 10 cents) -- outside the CBD it cost an extra 2 cents to transfer from a streetcar to a bus. (I'm wondering now if I should have said trolley, but as I recall the official PTC map referred to them as streetcars. For that matter, I always heard transfers referred to as passes.)

Is it likely SEPTA got the idea of free interchange between subway lines from New York City??? In New York you could ride the entire subway system on one fare![/quote]
Free interchange at City Hall was pushed for very strongly by a member of the SEPTA staff at the time who was familiar with the existence of free transfers in other cities, being a fan. I don't know whether the decision was exclusively his, but in any case he put the plan together and presented it to management.

To those who mentioned Chicago and Atlanta having lines branching out, yes, but this is the normal pattern, for lines to branch out as trains leave the central business district. Denver and Philly are unusual in that they have a spur branching out on a line heading TOWARD the CBD. A good example of commuter rail doing this is the LIRR where most trains west of Jamaica go to New York Penn in the Midtown mega-CBD but some trains go to Flatbush Avenue to serve Downtown Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn.

I have tried to Google, without success, photos and info of the Vine (Chinatown) station as it appeared more than 40 years ago. I can tell from old maps that, yes, Ridge Avenue came all the way down to Race Street and today's Headhouse is located in what was the middle of the street. Before the commuter tunnel and Vine Street Expressway construction, this area must have looked totally different. Today it's just a parking lot but what existed here before? Homes? Factories?

askclifford wrote:Wait, doesn't septa own the tunnel Patco is using right now on the Philadelphia side? I think Patco given the stations and a new track switch would like to expand their service past 8th Street. If DRPA was to abandoned Patco tomorrow, I'm positive NJ Transit or Septa would step in.

Yes. and SEPTA is capitolized. SEPTA is a huge transit authority. DRPA is just a simple bridge authority which operates on light rail line.

askclifford wrote:Thats actually really smart, and DRPA might be actually willing to take those tracks. They sure do run their stations better then Septa. BTW, Septa is very anxious to get rid of the Spur, so that might be a perfect match!

Totally false. SEPTA operates theirs better. Bear in mind DRPA in regards to rail, has just the responsibility of the PATCO light rail line. SEPTA has railroad, Subway, trolley, light rail, bus, trackless, everything. SEPTA has a huge job and they do it very well. Their biggest problem is the public pissing too much and people getting in the way.

askclifford wrote:1. Isn't Septa a branch of the City of Philadelphia? I know thats what is says and BSL cars reflect that with the City's seal, but its all government paid for with the same taxpayers money. Septa is owned by the government. The City of Philadelphia is owned by the Government, and I think its safe to say the "City Transit Division" is Philadelphia Transit.

2. NJ Transit operates 8 heavy rail lines, and even though PATCO is heavy rail, it can be operated by a city transit employee with three weeks training.

3. I never said Septa would get a worthwhile investment, I said Patco. And Septa is already in possession of the BSL.

Patco is light rail. SEPTA is capitolized.

What in the world is "capitolized" supposed to mean. I was taught back in grade school that the only capitol out there is in Washington DC on the hill?

1--SEPTA is a state-chartered authority, not a branch of city or suburban government

2--the Locust Street tunnel is owned by the City of Philadelphia, as is the Broad Street Subway. PATCO pays rent to the city.

3--ch1nish appears to be another sock puppet. I have put in a report to the moderators.

ch1nish wrote:

askclifford wrote:Wait, doesn't septa own the tunnel Patco is using right now on the Philadelphia side? I think Patco given the stations and a new track switch would like to expand their service past 8th Street. If DRPA was to abandoned Patco tomorrow, I'm positive NJ Transit or Septa would step in.

Yes. and SEPTA is capitolized. SEPTA is a huge transit authority. DRPA is just a simple bridge authority which operates on light rail line.

PATCO is definitely not a light rail line, and DRPA does more than just maintain bridges.

Regarding SEPTA or NJT taking it over...I dunno. When PATCO floated the idea, neither SEPTA or NJT, both full of their own funding issues with their systems, seemed to be really that interested in taking over the line.