Brightline (All Aboard Florida) Orlando - Miami FL FEC fka Virgin Rail

Intercity equipment in the US isn't as standardized on bilevels as is the commuter market, Brightline is an intercity service that doesn't necessarily need the capacity of bilevels. Additionally, single-level equipment puts 100% of seats at platform level with no stairs, which might be handy given Florida's aged and aging population. Additionally, the current issues with manufacturing bilevel intercity equipment for the US market means bilevels might not have suited their timeline.

More speculatively, I think that the endgame for FEC might be to sell the service to Amtrak after five or ten years. It's worth it to FEC's holding company to construct as a loss leader for their real estate holdings, but once the service is established and the real estate sold or leased, it doesn't particularly matter to them who runs the service. After five or ten years, with the legal issues long put away and the demand steady, Amtrak might well be persuaded to add it to their national system, especially with the connection at Jacksonville. And that transfer gets a lot easier if Brightline has the same locomotives and very similar passenger cars to Amtrak.

The EGE wrote: After five or ten years, with the legal issues long put away and the demand steady, Amtrak might well be persuaded to add it to their national system, especially with the connection at Jacksonville. And that transfer gets a lot easier if Brightline has the same locomotives and very similar passenger cars to Amtrak.

Conversely, if they decide to retain ownership, it will be a lot easier to get spare parts and/or acquire more rolling stock if you're using a design similar and/or identical to that used by Amtrak.

chaz wrote:I have tried to determine why folks feel so deeply about Brightline. It usually comes done to safety, noise, vibration, emergency service delays, lower property values and lifestyle.

You know, the part I put in bold above genuinely puzzles me. How does proximity to decent train service lower your property value? I've lived most my life in either NYC proper or the NY and CT suburbs. Everywhere around here, the closer you are to a station with decent service, the better. Real estate ads brag "walk to train!" And in NJ, towns like Summit, Chatham and Madison saw house prices skyrocket when NJT started direct service to Penn from the ex-Lackawanna in the late '90s.

Ridgefielder wrote:

chaz wrote:I have tried to determine why folks feel so deeply about Brightline. It usually comes done to safety, noise, vibration, emergency service delays, lower property values and lifestyle.

You know, the part I put in bold above genuinely puzzles me. How does proximity to decent train service lower your property value? I've lived most my life in either NYC proper or the NY and CT suburbs.

This is true of commuter rail, but not for intercity rail like Brightline. With commuter rail, proximity to tracks == proximity to usable station stops == access to jobs, markets, tourists, & leisure.

For Orlando, Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale and Miami this is true and from these places Brightline is mostly seeing full cooperation. For the places with stations, as with commuter rail, the increase in property value (due to mobility) usually does vastly outweigh any property value losses due to noise.

Brightline is getting most of its pushback from jurisdictions--the counties of Martin*, St Lucie, Indian River*, & Brevard**-- that will have trains surging through, but never stopping nearby (at least in the initial stages of operation). Basically, north of Palm Beach and South of Orlando you have a large number of high-income, suburban "big lot" developments which value their tranquility and perceive the trains as spoiling that without conferring any mobility benefit (it is hard to argue with that, I'd say).

If there were a stop at each of Port St Lucie, Vero Beach, and Melbourne/Palm Bay, it wouldn't please everyone, but you'd come a lot closer to delivering some "good" stops mixed with the "bad" of train noise and crossing traffic. But then the question would be how much it slowed down the Orlando-to-PBI-FLL-MIA crowd.

We see the same thing in the planning of Houston-Dallas HSR--the places in the middle are angry when they get train traffic/noise/road detours but no train stations.

* Martin and Indian River counties both sued to try to stop the bond issuance. Martin was also a focus of griping about crossings/closings.

**Brightline has said/hinted they'd like a stop at Cocoa in Brevard, which may have mollified some who'd have been inclined to oppose.

The EGE wrote:Intercity equipment in the US isn't as standardized on bilevels as is the commuter market, Brightline is an intercity service that doesn't necessarily need the capacity of bilevels. Additionally, single-level equipment puts 100% of seats at platform level with no stairs, which might be handy given Florida's aged and aging population. Additionally, the current issues with manufacturing bilevel intercity equipment for the US market means bilevels might not have suited their timeline.

More speculatively, I think that the endgame for FEC might be to sell the service to Amtrak after five or ten years. It's worth it to FEC's holding company to construct as a loss leader for their real estate holdings, but once the service is established and the real estate sold or leased, it doesn't particularly matter to them who runs the service. After five or ten years, with the legal issues long put away and the demand steady, Amtrak might well be persuaded to add it to their national system, especially with the connection at Jacksonville. And that transfer gets a lot easier if Brightline has the same locomotives and very similar passenger cars to Amtrak.

Wow great response, honestly I thought it would come down to something more physical IE: low bridge at one place or some kind of weight restrictions; but your explanation makes a lot more sense. Additionally the idea of 100%of the seats at one level is great especially since getting between cars can be a impossible for some on Superliner type equipment.

^Siemens probably gave them a good deal,too. And is there anybody who builds quality bilevels who has available delivery slots? The MBTA didn't think so.

Bilevels have a higher center of gravity, so speed around curves is lower. I'm guessing you don't save much per seat buying bi-levels? How about weight per seat? Definitely single level trains are nicer for passengers.

... especially for passengers with luggage.

and dwell

St. Lucie bridge upgrade/rehab, and Martin County intransigence (what else?!):

Copy paste disabled, so you have to go to the links.

TCPalm: Upgrade

TCPalm: Martin County Refuses to Consider Bridge Mitigation Measures

In a major victory for All Aboard Florida opponents, a federal judge on Tuesday said Martin and Indian River counties have legal standing to proceed with a lawsuit against the Miami-to-Orlando passenger railroad service.

After reviewing thousands of pages of evidence, “the court concludes that the counties have now met their burden of demonstrating standing,” U.S. District Court Judge Christopher Cooper said in a 39-page memorandum released late Tuesday.

If the decision — which Cooper described as a “close call” — had gone the other way, the counties’ cases against the U.S. Department of Transportation and All Aboard Florida and would have been dismissed.

The entire article from TCPalm newspaper group.

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/shaping-our- ... 78411.html

Still do not understand what precisely these counties expect to accomplish here. If I understand correctly there is nothing whatsoever that would prevent the Florida East Coast from operating as many freight trains as they want, at whatever speed they want, over the tracks they currently own. Adding a few light, fast passenger trains to the mix is not going to be a big deal. And I say this as someone who lives within 1,000' of a rail line that sees 40x the number of trains a day that Brightline will operate.

It's the first private passenger rail service in a long time.

Like many other railroad line propositions, whether it be freight or passenger lines, it has met some fierce opposition, and is in litigation.

In the age of automobiles and planes, do you think it will meet the same fate many other private passenger lines in the 60's and 70's met, or do you think that it will meet All Aboard Florida's expectations, and be a success?

I believe it can be a success as long as the Florida Turnpike remains a toll road. It'll be fast enough to be faster than driving, and should be cheaper than flying between Miami and Orlando. A businessman coming from or going to downtown Miami will find it more convenient because taking the plane or train in Orlando, as both terminals will be on airport property. Vactioners flying to Florida, either to Miami or Orlando, will be more likely to take the train to the other city than face another flight.

So speed and convenience will not hurt it much, the final important consideration left will be prices of the fares, and whether that fare price will pay its expenses and it turns a profit. A consideration to remember is that the rail corridor and trains will be mostly brand new upon startup of the service, the maintenance bills will be much smaller as compared to the NEC, which requires $Billions to place it into a state of good repair.

I think it can be a success as well. It will be very interesting to see a private, inter-city passenger route for the first time in decades, but I'm wondering if we'll see any other attempts by any other freight lines to start up their own passenger routes.

WHY?? Is this necessary when we already have a topic about AAF? The legal argument has gotten boring.
Noel Weaver