• Brightline (All Aboard Florida) Orlando - Miami FL FEC fka Virgin Rail

  • This is a forum for all operations, both current and planned, of Brightline, formerly All Aboard Florida and Virgin Trains USA:
    Websites: Current Brightline
    Virgin USA
    Virgin UK
This is a forum for all operations, both current and planned, of Brightline, formerly All Aboard Florida and Virgin Trains USA:
Websites: Current Brightline
Virgin USA
Virgin UK

Moderator: CRail

  by electricron
 
David Benton wrote:Any mention of connecting with Amtrak's silver service at Orlando, or of a Amtrak train , Jackonsville- Miami via FEC ?
Why should a museum exhibit about FEC passenger trains financially supported by FEC even mention Amtrak?

Amtrak doesn't go to Orlando's airport, FEC will not be going to Amtrak's station in downtown Orlando, so there will not be any connecting trains. Sunrail, Orlando's commuter rail agency, might provide the connecting link in the future if it ever provides train services to the airport.
Amtrak services over FEC corridor between Jacksonville and Miami may happen - only if the State of Florida provides funding for the switchover; Amtrak certainly will not provide the money, and FEC will not to run Amtrak trains over its corridor. There's a better chance Trirail will extend its commuter trains further north than West Palm Beach over the FEC.
  by Noel Weaver
 
To add to the last post, railroading both passenger and freight in Florida is presently in a state of "flux". A lot of things are possible down the road, some very soon, some in the future and some more possible at some time in the future. We all will just have to stay tuned for the future. I know one thing everybody I know is very glad that the Florida East Coast has stayed independent of both NS and CSX although they cooperate with both on traffic. Amtrak is still possible down the road too IF the funds can be found to build stations and do the other jobs necessary for this to happen, Amtrak wants it and the FEC is willing to cooperate.
Noel Weaver
  by chrsjrcj
 
The West Palm Beach station will be on Clematis street...a great location since Clematis Street is where all the night life in downtown West Palm Beach happens. It is also within walking distance of the county courthouse and City Place (another big shopping attraction here). You could walk from the proposed AAF site to the West Palm Beach Amtrak/Tri-Rail station, but there is already a free trolley that goes around City Place, Clematis Street, and to the Tri-Rail station...it won't be difficult at all to add a stop at AAF. AAF (or FECI) has already bought the old Sewell Hardware building on Evernia Street which is where the actual station building will stand. AAF will also have to shut down Evernia Streets and Datura Streets which the city has already given the OK (or at least plan to). Those streets are hardly busy and the city always wanted a frontage road on the westside of the tracks, so it's a win-win-win.

Not to make it political, but as far as Amtrak, Florida' gubernatorial elections are next year. Charlie Crist is running again. He did support the Florida High Speed Rail project, and I think he supported Amtrak on the FEC too. Then again, Governor Scott gave the okay for SunRail.
  by Noel Weaver
 
[quote="chrsjrcj" ]Not to make it political, but as far as Amtrak, Florida' gubernatorial elections are next year. Charlie Crist is running again. He did support the Florida High Speed Rail project, and I think he supported Amtrak on the FEC too. Then again, Governor Scott gave the okay for SunRail.[/quote]

I am not making it political either but Charlie Crist does support rail, he made it downtown in Miami to ride the Amtrak special in 2010 but ended up not riding with us only because he had to go to Pensacola to deal with the BP oil spill in the Gulf.
Noel Weaver
  by David Benton
 
electricron wrote:
David Benton wrote:Any mention of connecting with Amtrak's silver service at Orlando, or of a Amtrak train , Jackonsville- Miami via FEC ?
Why should a museum exhibit about FEC passenger trains financially supported by FEC even mention Amtrak?

.
Because Noel mentioned,"Don Robinson gave us a lot of background on All Aboard Florida and its plans for good passenger service between Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and Orlando".
Thanks for your info though .
  by electricron
 
David Benton wrote:Because Noel mentioned,"Don Robinson gave us a lot of background on All Aboard Florida and its plans for good passenger service between Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and Orlando".
Thanks for your info though .
Noel also reported the museum exhibit was being financed by FEC.
Think of the museum exhibit as paid publicity by FEC for the future AAF (All Aboard Florida) train service - not the existing Amtrak train services. They need the publicity to help raise funds privately - they aren't looking for federal grants although they wouldn't decline a federal loan.

Here's a youtube link by FEC two years ago about AAF which is rather dated now. Note there was very little discussion about Amtrak. If Amtrak wants more publicity in Florida, then Amtrak is going to have to pay for it themselves. It is not FEC's job to advertise for Amtrak. Presently, FEC is planing on building and operating an entirely separate passenger service on a separate railroad corridor with no interface with Amtrak at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dl1yVSD_Tv8

Don't forget, Amtrak will be running a competing train service between Miami's airport and downtown Orlando and cities further north, FEC will be running a train service between downtown Miami and Orlando's airport, both running on different railroad corridors. Why advertise and promote your competitor?
  by Noel Weaver
 
I don't think there will be any competetion between the FEC and Amtrak between Miami and Orlando. Amtrak's route is much slower and longer as well and they have one direct train a day plus one train via Tampa a day in each direction. They get a very decent ridership between Florida Stations but it will not compare with what All Aboard Florida will be handling between South Florida and Orlando. As I said earlier you can expect a lot of things to happen here, some soon but many in the distant future. I think it will be pretty interesting. There have been some "naysayers" on here regarding All Aboard Florida but I say to them, DON'T JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS". Several times people and organizations have jumped to conclusions about the Florida East Coast in years past only to be proven very WRONG.
Noel Weaver
  by Ocklawaha
 
Here you go my friends. A few articles I've written on this subject and my own projections from a semi retired transportation consultant point of view. I've pasted the main story and added links to some related stories. ENJOY.
Robert

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A Brief History of the "Speedway to America's Playground.

Historically to board a train to the east coast of Florida from any point in America, involved a trip through the massive Jacksonville Terminal. It was said at that time, the impressive station made one feel as if he had entered Jacksonville like a Greek god. A short history of Passenger Rail on the Florida East Coast Railway, a destination for most of these grand old trains is in order here.

Built primarily in the last quarter of the 19th century and the first decade of the 20th century, the FEC was a project of Standard Oil principal Henry Morrison Flagler. The story goes that Flagler originally intended only to develop world class hotels, resorts and industries in Florida, until the narrow gauge Jacksonville and St. Augustine Railway decided to charge exorbitant amounts to carry his construction materials. Flagler bought the railroad, extending it all the way from Jacksonville to Key West and never looked back.

After the death of its benefactor, the Florida East Coast made only 25% of its income from passenger service, which represented 75% of its operations. Regardless of 30 years of weak financial performance, the FEC RY was still seen as the premiere passenger railroad in the south, indeed it was known as "The Speedway to America's Playground." The railroad played host to many of America's finest and fastest passenger trains, a legacy that probably would have continued had Jacksonville's own Ed Ball not decided to take on the railroad labor unions.

Love him or hate him, the late Mr. Ball converted the FEC RY into what might be termed America's first modern 'super railroad.' Passenger trains were swept aside as Ball's philosophy of 'Negate the negative, accentuate the positive,’ started to take effect. In 2007 the railroad was purchased by, Fortress Investment Group, which acquired it for over US$3 billion (including non-rail assets). Fortress owns Flagler Development and for the first time in years, the famed development monolith and the railroad are back in the same hands.

Keep in mind that FECI, Flagler and Florida East Coast Railway are separate companies. The State of Florida, Port Canaveral, Sunrail, Tri-Rail, The Southeast Florida Corridor Project, CSX and Norfolk Southern ultimately, will all be players.

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The FEC RY has experience in doing the impossible as evidenced by the Bahia Honda Bridge on Flagler's railroad across the sea.(Photography-Match.com)

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Was FEC sending a subliminal message when they recently rolled out locomotive 714 in the classic passenger colors of the past? (Kevin Andrusia Photo)

From the news release: “All Aboard Florida is unlike any other rail project proposed in the last several years. It is a private passenger rail venture that will be privately owned, operated and maintained with no risk to the state.”

What I suspect the Project is, and what it is not.

“It is incorrect to refer to All Aboard Florida as a high-speed rail project.”

“All Aboard Florida will be a privately owned, operated and maintained passenger rail system. The existing Right of Way and track infrastructure All Aboard Florida will be operating on is privately owned. It is not owned by the State.”

Don't get caught up in the tricky wording in the mainstream media, what FECI is saying is they will manage the project at no risk to the taxpayers. They never said they would own the right-of-way between Cocoa and Orlando, just “the existing right-of-way.” FECI is not going out on a limb in a venture this risky unless there are some solid guarantees and in following my hunches, I have found the collective dividends will be huge. Rapidly growing real estate markets near the tracks is a strong incentive for a company like Flagler Development.

Nowhere in the press release do I actually read the words; FECI will own the right-of-way, tracks, or even the trains, (again except for the historic Miami-Cocoa portion which is owned by sister company FEC RY). All of the indicators point to heavy state involvement in zero risk infrastructure improvements. All Aboard Florida, could easily own the operating rights, maintenance contracts, staffing, and through the complex family tree, 200 miles of the Florida East Coast Railway itself, without really owning the balance of the 40 extra miles of new right-of-way between Orlando-Cocoa, or the tracks, or even the trains.

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Think conservative and act liberal

Environmental considerations, right of way purchase and speed of implementation all point to the state owned, former high-speed rail right-of-way. All Aboard Florida will use conventional passenger trains operating over the Florida East Coasts speedway and the new link between Cocoa and Orlando.

Lastly, 2014 is an election year, and Governor Scott performed poorly in this part of Florida in 2010. Scott came up short in Orange, Osceola, St. Lucie, Palm Beach, Broward, Hillsborough, Pinellas and Dade Counties. He knows he must win these voters over to have a chance in the next election. Anyone who has driven in Southeast or Central Florida, and heard the Republican rhetoric typically pro highway and anti rail will instantly understand why we're getting the High Speed Rail (HSR) route, without the ‘HIGH SPEED’. To be honest, this time it will be done right. Far right. Oh, and one more thing, IT IS NOT HSR, it is conventional regional corridor service, something the HSR project should have been from the start.

But keep in mind, it’s much, much more then that, this is freight rail, a tonnage connection between Port Canaveral’s north container terminal and CSX freight moving east out of St Petersburg, Tampa, Orlando. And an alternate route for those Orlando Utilities Commission coal trains currently running through downtown Orlando.

“Results from the feasibility studies currently underway will determine if this project will be viable and if Florida East Coast Industries (FECI) should continue forward with the initiative.”

Actually to have the trains running by 2014, chances are they are on order or under construction right now. Railcar orders at a record high with waiting lists counted in years, so I’d bet the decision to move ahead has already been made.

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What alignment will the tracks use?

“Inferences to the double-tracking of existing track lines between Miami and Cocoa and the new corridor alignments are speculation. FECI is conducting the necessary engineering studies and due diligence research that will help determine next steps on existing and new track infrastructure and corridor options.”

Metrojacksonville's railroad pundits “speculation,” is that from Orlando, the existing state owned Sunrail/CSX route would be used to get trains from the Orlando Central Business district south to the vicinity of Sand Lake Road where it intersects with the Orlando Utilities Commission Railroad, which loops south of the Tradeport Drive area and the south end of Orlando International Airport (OIA). If I am correct, until the long delayed south terminal is constructed at OIA the Orlando Airport Station would be in the vicinity of the intersection of Wethebee Road/CR-530 and Boggy Creek Road. If this alignment were chosen it would cross the Tosohatchee State Reserve and the St. Johns River parallel and contiguous to the Beachline Expressway, but not in the median.

Besides following the Beachline to the Florida East Coast tracks in Cocoa there is another possible alignment one that would cross the Beachline Expressway where it turns southeast after the interchange with State Route 407. The route would continue east staying north of the Canaveral Groves Subdivision until crossing Interstate Highway 95 where it would turn southeast crossing the intersection of Canaveral Groves Boulevard and Grissom Road. This alignment would then turn south entering the Florida East Coast right-of-way near Cidco Road. Either way, it appears that the former, 'new' Florida East Coast Railway station at Cocoa-Rockledge, northern most on the coastal route might get a new lease on what had been a prematurely, truncated life. The balance of the Florida East Coast route will almost certainly see capacity increases.

Long term, if the line is ever extended to Tampa, FECI tracks could easily carry both the passenger trains and the Florida East Coast Railway’s freight trains, as well as those of business partner Norfolk Southern. However, don’t expect to see Flagler’s ‘gandy dancers’ laying track out on I-4. It is much more likely the State already worked something out quietly in the aftermath of the HSR collapse to sensibly use the CSX tracks to service Tampa from Orlando. My guess is Scott tossed the ‘S’ line cities of Gainesville (Waldo), Ocala and Dade City, under the train and cut a deal to keep passenger rail off of the ‘S’ in exchange for a free hand on the ‘A’ line Tampa-Orlando-Jacksonville.

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Lest you think I jest about some 'hidden' Port Canaveral Intentions

A regional freight benefit for that ‘other’ Fortress property?

While I don’t think a new freight connector is a driving force in the ‘All Aboard Florida’ plan, it will be region wide benefit. As far back as 1980, the Federal Government frowned on a $600 million dollar plan to create a major coal port at Port Canaveral that would be served by the Florida East Coast Railway using segments of the NASA Railroad. At that time they were afraid of train interference with the Space Shuttle program. The project was being pushed by Hvide Marine, Florida East Coast Railway, Canaveral Port Authority, joined by Florida Power and Light, when the companies studied the costs of building the rail link themselves across the Banana River, Merritt Island, Sykes Creek and the Indian River a $20 million (1980's) dollar cost was a project killer. Unbelievably among the potential customers released by Hvide, one finds the Jacksonville Electric Authority.

Luck is changing for Port Canaveral, and this railroad project, could be its ticket into the big leagues of world cargo ports. Today the Florida East Coast, like Flagler Development and FECI are part of the Fortress Investment Group LLC (NYSE: “FIG”) a leading global investment manager with approximately $43.7 billion of assets under management as of December 31, 2011. That Fort Lauderdale based marine operator is now part of Seacor Holdings, a company with revenues of $2.1 billion. Florida Power and Light became FPL holdings with power generation assets in 20 states, now called Nextera Energy a fortune 200 company. This time around the players are different, Port Canaveral will be joined by the full power of the State of Florida and the Federal Government, not to mention tossing in CSX, Norfolk Southern and a host of other players.

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Tampa is not on the initial route, but it's Union Station is up, ready and waiting.

Is Jacksonville another collateral beneficiary ?

“The plan is to have the South Florida-to-Orlando route service running in 2014. The feasibility studies currently underway will better crystallize the next steps to move the project forward. Any inferences to a temporary connecting service would be incorrect.”

It appears from this communication that FECI has no intention of running a train until the entire route is complete from Miami, Cocoa and Orlando. So what about Jacksonville? It is almost a certainty that if Miami–Orlando is a success, some of these trains could be running through to Jacksonville in the near future and we won’t have to wait for 40 miles of track construction.

Jacksonville in the bigger passenger train picture?

Aside from and unrelated to what is going on, on the FECI project, there is the Orlando Sunrail system, an actual commuter rail operation (think more passengers and less amenities) stretching from Deland to Poinciana. Sunrail will be up and running within the same rough time frame. Could it be that Tallahassee and Central Florida has discovered train operation is cheaper than building more freeway lanes? Once Sunrail is running, you can bet Tampa and hopefully Jacksonville will be onboard.

Remember that trains from the north and trains from the south all converge within shouting distance of Jacksonville Terminal Station. Florida East Coast Railway has agreements to operate on the Norfolk Southern all the way to Atlanta, and the CEO of NS recently said something to the effect that they will operate any future passenger service over their own tracks. Where do they go? The Norfolk Southern runs from Jacksonville to Atlanta via Valdosta and is fairly close to I-75. Miami-Atlanta anyone?

Florida is an originating or terminating state for all railroads, that cross its borders and every line that enters the peninsular, passes right through Jacksonville. Jacksonville's geographic position as the hub between all lines north, Midwest and west and all lines south into peninsular Florida, makes us a natural hub even with the apathetic tendencies at City Hall.

Jacksonville is solidly on the map of the Southeast High Speed Rail System as it's southern terminus. SEHSR, like its cousins in Illinois, Michigan and New York, is actually moving along at a fairly rapid pace. The railroad is being built logically, in incremental steps, including a recent announcement of a grant allowing the next step toward restoration of the old Seaboard Railroad, Virginia - North Carolina 'S' line link. If this sounds familiar, it should, that's the same 'S' line that passes alongside north Main Street from Jacksonville, into South Georgia. The day might be approaching when the entirety of the old Seaboard route between Jacksonville and Savannah is reconstructed.

Meanwhile in schizophrenic spurts, Amtrak is talking of more service between New York and Florida. The number I’ve heard from Amtrak officials is 6 trains to the northeast within a ‘reasonable time.’ Consider that those trains, while not high speed, could easily be the start of extending the Northeast Corridor into Florida. Even if the Republicans take complete control of the government and kill Amtrak’s national long-distance system, it is unlikely that those senators and congressmen will scrap this link in their Florida vacation plans.

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Jacksonville Terminal, converted into a dysfunctional convention center with even worse plans for a sprawling reconversion to a multi-modal terminal.

How do we get to the Temple?

To achieve any of these goals there has to be a single, central, downtown, Jacksonville Terminal Station and if I'm not mistaken, that's what is carved in stone above those 14 massive sandstone columns at 1000 West Bay Street. Done right, that substantial head-house, as a multimodal station building would allow travelers to, as they once said, "Enter Jacksonville like a god."

Article by Robert Mann
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/preview/2242" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Read more ALL ABOARD FLORIDA at metrojacksonville.com :

All Aboard Florida Train Unveiled. http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/ ... ic=16455.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Is the JRTC a Mistake in the Making? http://www.metrojacksonville.com/articl ... the-making" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center http://www.metrojacksonville.com/articl ... ter/page/1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  by Noel Weaver
 
Much of what this person has posted I tend to agree with. While it is not really high speed, it is high speed by current rail standards in Florida. No rail in Florida runs 110 MPH but All Aboard Florida will be able to operate at 110 MPH north of West Palm where there is less activity, fewer crossings and HOPEFULLY fewer fools trying to do something really stupid around railroad property. Unfortunately both railroad ROWs in Florida pretty much run at ground level, no fills, no cuts and too few underpasses or overpasses so the chance for nasty encounters with trespassers and errant vehicles is generally much higher than in other parts of the country. The mainlines in the northeast for example and I am only speaking of the real mainlines in this case are often elevated or in a cut because many, many years the builders or operators saw the wisdom of complete or nearly complete separation of the railroad with streets, sidewalks etc. If the builders or later operators of the New Haven and Pennsylvania Railroads had not saw fit to avoid street crossings both when the lines were built or when improvements were made some as late as the NEC improvement projects of the 80's and 90's we would not be able to have the 125 - 150 MPH trains over these lines that we have today. Too bad we do not have such separations in Florida but 110 MPH will give a good ride and good service in Florida. Finally I have been silent about Edward Ball who is probably the person most responsible for the FEC being what it is today. YES he took on the unions and the union leaders did not play their cards right in this case either. Having said that, Ball was not singlehandly responsible for what is here today, he was smart beyond belief and he found and appointed some brilliant people to actually see the projects through. The Florida East Coast today is light years ahead of any other railroad near its size as well as most of the larger ones too. One thing about being at ground level, it gives us a chance to see for ourselves the level of construction, maintenance and operations of this railroad and it is something that you would actually have to see to believe, smooth heavy rock ballast, heavy rail, concrete ties etc plus the things that you might not see right away like modern signals, cab signals and train control etc. Even with the existing plant, there is capacity for more trains here than are presently operated although with the longer and longer trains that are being operated today some siding issues do come up from time to time.
Jacksonville is an example of a big mistake both on Amtrak's part plus the local's part, the existing passenger station is a dump in a dumpy neighborhood too far from the downtown areas and in an area where many people do not want to venture. It needs to be relocated to a better part of town but still where it can be accessed from all the lines that come in to Jacksonvaille which the original station had. I am thinking if passenger service ever returns to the old Southern Route, currently Norfolk Southern today it would be difficult to reach the present station. A lot of the station changes in Florida took place in the 70's when the decision makers were not using their brains if indeed they had any. Today I have seen much of the Florida East Coast inside and out and believe me it is an organization that today we can be proud of and I am proud of it.
Noel Weaver
  by electricron
 
Noel Weaver wrote:I don't think there will be any competetion between the FEC and Amtrak between Miami and Orlando. Amtrak's route is much slower and longer as well and they have one direct train a day plus one train via Tampa a day in each direction. They get a very decent ridership between Florida Stations but it will not compare with what All Aboard Florida will be handling between South Florida and Orlando.
Noel Weaver
Whether FEC believes its All Aboard Florida project will provide a superior service or not, they still aren't going to provide Amtrak much in free advertising by promoting Amtrak services in a museum exhibit. That would be like Snickers promoting Hershey bars. We shouldn't expect that to happen.
  by Noel Weaver
 
David Benton wrote:I didn't say they should promote Amtrak. I just wondered if the spokesperson mentioned it.Or anyone asked about it.
The event last Wednesday was a Broward County Library/Florida East Coast event and not much if anything was said about Amtrak. The FEC has made it known that they will cooperate in an Amtrak operation on their railroad and I truly believe they would, Amtrak, after all, would be a customer and customers make the railroad. The artifacts were mostly from the collection of historian Seth Bramson, he has a huge amount of Florida East Coast railroadiana from the past.
Noel Weaver
  by electricron
 
Another youtube video of a presentation meeting with the Indian River Drive Freeholders.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3yYjaba6qw
Some responses worth noting:
Testing trains and tracks late 2015
Revenue service early 2016
EIS underway between West Palm Beach and Orlando,
EIS completed between West Palm Beach to Miami, permits approved
Down to two unnamed vendors for the trains, one located in NY (CAF?) (Bombardier?) and the other in CA (Siemens?)
  by kaitoku
 
Interesting about the possibility of Siemens being a supplier of loco-hauled stock, they are not such a prolific builder of such types, being more of a emu and loco builder. They do build the Viaggio series, used on the OBB Railjet services:

http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mobilit ... aches.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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