Boston-Montreal?

MudLake wrote:Amtrak's mission is not nor ever has been to take a relative handful of tourists to Canada.

The stats on ridership when the Montrealer was operated would disprove your statement. Hardly just a "handful of tourists" rode this train.

I think that most people on this forum would agree that in a perfect world, a restoration of rail passenger service to Montreal via Vermont would be a nice thing. The problem is that this is not a perfect world. Unless the states and/or Canadian sources step up to pay for it, it simply isn't going to happen. Amtrak currently can't afford to provide service on a lot of routes connecting much bigger markets within the US. It's not about to increase service to Canada in the current funding environment.

Regarding potential state support for a service restoration, it was Vermont's budget issues that led the Montrealer to be cut back to St. Albans, and Vermont hasn't suddenly become wealthier. Massachusetts is totally tapped out regarding transportation funding these days and New Hampshire's financial support for rail passenger service has historically been minimal. And as others have noted, the former B&M Northern Division between Concord and Lebanon has been abandoned for over twenty years. It ain't comin' back anytime soon.

The Montrealer did quite well on the trip north but this train did NOT run
out of Boston but Washington and New York. The big thing against this
train was its high operating costs between St. Albans and Montreal and the
high cost of turning it in Montreal.
This particular train was also affected to a large degree by seasonal and
peak days, probably more than many other trains at least in the area.
I would like to see this train go back on as an overnight train between
Washington, New York and Montreal via New London. Running via New
London might add a little to the schedule but this would be a positive with
this particular train as it would arrive in Vermont at a more reasonable
AM hour and they would not have to jackass the train around in
Springfield and Palmer. If somebody from Boston really wanted to ride
the train to or from Montreal they could connect at New London. One big
obstacle to this today would be the lack of sleeping cars available to
run a train of this nature.
Noel Weaver

Seeing as I'm one of the few Montrealers on this board, thought I'd throw in my comments...

- That comparison with Detroit really doesn't sit well with me. Detroit, AFAIK is the "poster child" as far as cities with hollowed out centres are concerned. It's also up there when it comes to violent crimes. Whatever its faults, Montreal is almost its antithesis on these two points. Our downtown is quite lively - especially at night - with plenty of restaurants and bars. And, while your car may be stolen if you don't take precautions, your chances of being mugged are relatively low. As far as "thriving" goes, it's true that the per capita wealth here is relatively low. If you're looking to spend a week here eating at high end eateries, there may not be a great selection (but there is enough for a long weekend). If your budget is more modest, you won't have a problem.

- as far as Boston<->Montreal end to end travel goes, I don't know that it's that large a market. Delta dropped this run in recent years and Air Canada uses only smaller planes to serve it. There are four of five bus trips each way daily (none of them non-stop IIRC). In that regard, a train would be duplicating a more or less comparable existing service. It should be noted that, as the train would stop in Essex Junction and not Burlington, it would be inferior in this regard.

- I don't know the details as to why turning the Vermonter in Montreal was deemed too expensive/impractical at some point, but that was many years ago. For one thing, CN - since privatised - has reportedly become one of the most efficient Class Is. The matter of extending the Vermonter to Montreal should be revisited.

- In conjunction with the above, a Boston->Palmer->Springfield->Albany service with good connections to the Vermonter at Palmer to/from Burlington and Montreal would be the thing to do short and medium term.

MudLake wrote: there are many places where Amtrak can play a bigger role than Boston-Montreal. Just for starters, there has to be many many multiples of traffic volume between Tampa and Orlando, a route with no Amtrak service at all.

Disagree once again. Florida has congestion up the ying yang as a result of over-explosive growth in the recent past, making those areas in particular, difficult to establish modern ROW conducive to an efficient system. The areas north of Boston on the other hand, exist in many cases the same way that they did in 1800. Not only is service poor or non-existant in this vast area, but it is far more conducive to building an efficient rail system.

Also, the "tourist shuttle" would be a nice benefit to this system, which could have as it's primary mission, to expand business, politics, intelligence, industry, and tourism internationally.

MissisquoiValleyRR wrote: - I don't know the details as to why turning the Vermonter in Montreal was deemed too expensive/impractical at some point, but that was many years ago. For one thing, CN - since privatised - has reportedly become one of the most efficient Class Is. The matter of extending the Vermonter to Montreal should be revisited.

- In conjunction with the above, a Boston->Palmer->Springfield->Albany service with good connections to the Vermonter at Palmer to/from Burlington and Montreal would be the thing to do short and medium term.

I'm with you. I think that incremental growth is working. The Downeaster is a convincing display of that. The first priority now is to start filling in the network. Better service out to Springfield, and Albany if it works, should be the priority first. There would be a lot of in-state business travelers heading to the capital and metro area, and students from the Connecticut River valley colleges heading to Boston, and it's surprising to me this service isn't stronger already. Re-extend the Vermonter, knowing that the stronger east-west service will provide a few transferring passengers. And then see where we stand.

Perhaps the canadians could be convinced to run a connecting train down to Vermont . It seems to me they have more to gain from it Toursit wise than the American states . and they seem to recognise the value of trains bringing in foriegn tourists .

Noel Weaver wrote:The Montrealer did quite well on the trip north but this train did NOT run
out of Boston but Washington and New York. The big thing again this
train was its high operating costs between St. Albans and Montreal and the
high cost of turning it in Montreal.
This particular train was also affected to a large degree by seasonal and
peak days, probably more than many other trains at least in the area.
I would like to see this train go back on as an overnight train between
Washington, New York and Montreal via New London. Running via New
London might add a little to the schedule but this would be a positive with
this particular train as it would arrive in Vermont at a more reasonable
AM hour and they would not have to dummy the train around in
Springfield and Palmer. If somebody from Boston really wanted to ride
the train to or from Montreal they could connect at New London. One big
obstacle to this today would be the lack of sleeping cars available to
run a train of this nature.
Noel Weaver

Convention wisdom would favor running via Hartford and Springfield to serve those markets, but two words make a train via New London lucrative: Mohegan Sun. The New England Central tracks run between the casino/hotel complex and the Thames River. Can you say "Gamblers Express?"

I've got an even better one for you : Amtrak being under Federal government control, can you say "Gambling Train" ? (Great for Amtrak's deficit.)

David Benton wrote:Perhaps the canadians could be convinced to run a connecting train down to Vermont . It seems to me they have more to gain from it Toursit wise than the American states . and they seem to recognise the value of trains bringing in foreign tourists .

At present the Canadians find the US cheap because of the falling US$. So the traffic, at least at present, would tend to be southbound.

Seven years ago I took the bus connection to St Albans. I wish it had been a train. Not even that is possible now. The bus was a standard Greyhound type, and was about half full, I think. It left very early in the mornming - about 06.30.

wow what a topic this turned into....


Otto, I should have been more clear. I meant would it work in terms of popularity. I know Montreal, at least from my experience, has been a popular city for tourists. I've been to Montreal twice and thought that it would be nice to take a train there. My next question would have been is there a route thats feasable, and it seems that a route maybe well impossible.

one question is the route of the Allouette impossible now? If I remember correctly, I think parts of where it branched off in plymouth are oblitterated.


Oh well, its nice to dream. Who knows, maybe in 20 years...?

jscola30 wrote:one question is the route of the Allouette impossible now? If I remember correctly, I think parts of where it branched off in plymouth are oblitterated.

'Fraid so. The B&M's Plymouth-Woodsville (NH) branch is long gone. And as I and others have noted here, the Concord-Lebanon (NH) portion of the train's later (1950s) route is gone too. And most of what's left is minimally maintained, low-speed freight trackage.

I still hear stories on my trips to Burlington/Essex, VT of people who used to ride the Montrealer from Burlington/Essex, VT to Montreal in the morning northbound. Then spend a day in Montreal and catch this train back home southbound. So it would seem there were diverse ridership. An overnight run to Montreal along the Vermonter route would probably be more of a success than if it operated on the Adirondack route. But again, as mentioned above, you've got border crossing issues more prevalent now and it would be nice to serve the Boston market. Connecting train would have to work out, but as an overnight train, it would typically be an unfriendly passenger hour transfer if using the pure Vermonter route. Could the train traverse the NEC up to Boston, then out of Boston on the CSX route and up to Vermont via Palmer - while still leaving Washington DC around 4 p.m., Boston at some descent hour and morning arrivals into Vermont and Montreal. I think this would be a huge stretch. That's why the New London plan may not be so bad, and have Boston passengers connect there. Course all this is a pipe dream with the current Amtrak. Montrealer worked well as a night train. Vermonter works well as day train, but it takes up a "day" of travel to get to where one needs to go on the Vermonter. Losing the bus connection at St. Albans to Montreal was not the best for this route overall. And the connection at Springfield for Boston passengers could be hit or miss for Vermonter passengers (or a long layover eastbound).

And yes - times have changed that perhaps VIA Rail would be more conducive to managing an overnight Montrealer without heavy turn-around charges to Amtrak. After all, such travel is a benefit for Canada as much as the US. I'd also settle on the Ethan Allen Express extended to Burlington where one could get a bus connection from the downtown terminal in Burlington to Montreal.

One reason delta dropped their BOS-MTL flights would be in the case of people like me.

I went to Motntreal on weekenders every year for 17 years. In 4 hours, from my house in the Nashua NH area, I could be IN downtown Montreal, checking into my hotel.

4 hours by plane? Well, it's an hour to Logan and I have to be there an hour or more before the flight. There's 2 hours right there AT LEAST. Then there's the hour's flight. Now, getting out of the flight, clearing customs (5 minutes when driving up I-89) and making my way to downtown. Rail connection? Nope. It's a taxi from the airport or rental (more waiting).

Cost? By car, one tank of gas ALMOST gets me round-trip. By plane? Several hundred dollars. An inexpensive train would get me DOWNTOWN and I could take the metro where I wanted to go.