Asking Philosophically: Why Does SEPTA Suck So Badly?

Apparently NJ Transit doesn't have to deal with as many anti-transit municipalities as SEPTA. Hence the River Line, frequent(er) service on the NEC to NYP, service to AC, etc. How does the Garden State do it with essentially the same local government structure as PA (both states have cities, boroughs, and townships below the county level [except for Philadelphia Co. which happens to be the city of that name])?

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loufah wrote:At Trenton, NJT provides around 2 or 3x the frequency as SEPTA, yet SEPTA almost never fills more than 2 cars there.

In nice round numbers half the people getting on the NJTransit trains in Trenton and Hamilton are Pennsylvanians going to New York City. So they know how to get on a train to get into the city. Maybe it has less to do with SEPTA and more to do with Philadelphia.

I may be a little too late with my opinion, but here it goes anyway...

After many, many hours of research, I have come to the conclusion that the regional rail system that SEPTA inherited from Conrail was a great blessing, and also a great curse. Before Conrail, the Pennsylvania Railroad and Reading Railroads both provided commuter rail service. From what I have learned through my research, the Reading Railroad frequently deferred maintenance on its lines. This was the cause for the RailWorks project that took place in the 1990s as several of the bridges on the Reading Viaduct were condemned, and one bridge near the former Temple station was determined to be in eminent danger of collapse. I'm not too sure how well Pennsy maintained their infrastructure, however. This is a shame as SEPTA probably obtained over 200 miles in track.

I am hopeful about the future, however. Philadelphia seems to be growing into more of a prime destination on the East Coast. Also, parts of the Delaware Valley, including Philadelphia, are growing in population. This means that SEPTA will probably look into expansion and restoration after its $5B State of Good Repairs backlog is finally finished. Like you, I become envious of other transit agencies when I see that they are expanding while SEPTA isn't; nevertheless, I understand that it all has to do with funding (which has changed with the passage of Act 89). Pertaining to SEPTA's Railroad Division, I can envision trains running to Pottstown over the Pencoyd Viaduct, trains running to the Thorndale Line running to Atglen, the Lansdale/Doylestown Line running to at least Quakertown (in my opinion, service to Allentown/Bethlehem needs to be reinstated), the R3 coming back to West Chester, and even the R2 going as far as Perryville, MD to meet up with MARC!

PhilliesPhan2013 wrote:Pertaining to SEPTA's Railroad Division, I can envision trains running to Pottstown over the Pencoyd Viaduct, trains running to the Thorndale Line running to Atglen, the Lansdale/Doylestown Line running to at least Quakertown (in my opinion, service to Allentown/Bethlehem needs to be reinstated), the R3 coming back to West Chester, and even the R2 going as far as Perryville, MD to meet up with MARC!

The best chance of expansion in our lifetimes is over existing operating trackage. Atglen will happen sooner than people think. Trains running to Pottstown via a simple restored connection at Zoo (I'm not sure how the Pencoyd viaduct would come into play here). And service to Perryville (assuming that Maryland is willing to subsidize the trips.) is fairly easy.

Clearfield wrote:

PhilliesPhan2013 wrote:Pertaining to SEPTA's Railroad Division, I can envision trains running to Pottstown over the Pencoyd Viaduct, trains running to the Thorndale Line running to Atglen, the Lansdale/Doylestown Line running to at least Quakertown (in my opinion, service to Allentown/Bethlehem needs to be reinstated), the R3 coming back to West Chester, and even the R2 going as far as Perryville, MD to meet up with MARC!

The best chance of expansion in our lifetimes is over existing operating trackage. Atglen will happen sooner than people think. Trains running to Pottstown via a simple restored connection at Zoo (I'm not sure how the Pencoyd viaduct would come into play here). And service to Perryville (assuming that Maryland is willing to subsidize the trips.) is fairly easy.

I personally would love to see the extension of Regional Rail service to Perryville, as just like the Trenton Line (R7) and NJT being a cheaper alternative to Amtrak for those going to/from New York City, it would be the same for those going to Baltimore and Washington, DC. Right now, the only way of getting to Baltimore/Washington, DC from the Philadelphia area by rail is Amtrak...which is NOT cheap!

SubwayTim wrote:I personally would love to see the extension of Regional Rail service to Perryville, as just like the Trenton Line (R7) and NJT being a cheaper alternative to Amtrak for those going to/from New York City, it would be the same for those going to Baltimore and Washington, DC. Right now, the only way of getting to Baltimore/Washington, DC from the Philadelphia area by rail is Amtrak...which is NOT cheap!

To have SEPTA running ANY service on AMTRAK trackage is more expensive than running on its own.

SEPTA needs to get operating rights for the route from Amtrak. They also have to pay for the use of the tracks for each train using them AND for the propulsion power.

Failing obtaining operating subsidies from either Maryland, Delaware, or both, this will be a non-starter unfortunately, as the fares would be double what they would be with the subsidy.

If Delaware has potential commuter traffic South to Perryville, then Delaware may pony up some money to make better use of the SLV's they purchased.
If Maryland has potential commuter traffic North from Perryville, then Maryland may pony up some money.

Thank you for all the thoughtful answers. Somebody brought up the 20 mile gap between Perryville and Newark. That’s been one of my big peeves for a long time now. I went to graduate school in Washington, and getting back to Philadelphia always meant AMTRAK. It would have been wonderful to take the locals and save some money.

I know that money has a lot to do with this, but there’s so much more wrong here. I mean, for Christ’s sake, SEPTA has been working for ten years to get trains running from Elwyn to Wawa. That’s three miles. You can walk that far in an hour. The Transcontinental Railroad took less time to build. It’s been 150 years since they began that work, and if SEPTA had taken that job on, and had worked as fast as they have on the West Chester Branch, we’d be lucky if we could ride a train from Omaha to Lincoln, Nebraska by now.

Just to highlight the contrasts here, SEPTA has three miles of track that’s already there. Maybe they need to lay new track, but even so, the railbed is built. The catenary poles are still there, too. When they built the Transcontinental Railroad, they had to build it from scratch, 1500 miles, over the Rocky Mountains and through deserts. What’s the worst SEPTA has to deal with? Chester Creek? The Baltimore Pike?

I guess the only hope over the long haul is to scrap SEPTA altogether and set up some new organization in its stead, one with the power to tax, and that has authority in more than five counties. I don’t know what the likelihood is of that. So many people in and near Philadelphia seem to have just kind of given up on SEPTA, which, to be fair, makes sense. As somebdy else here said, Reading and Bethlehem might be pipe dreams now, but Newtown, Quakertown, West Chester and Pottstown should not. But they are.

My own solution to this is to find some billionaire who loves trains, and convince him to buy out SEPTA and run the whole system as a hobby. I can’t see how that could work any worse, and at this point, it hardly seems any more unrealistic than SEPTA getting off its ass and running trains to West Chester.

Mumphrey O. Yamm wrote:My own solution to this is to find some billionaire who loves trains, and convince him to buy out SEPTA and run the whole system as a hobby.

Works for me!!

If I'm not mistaken, regional rail service between Newark and Perryville requires an extra track to be built, or at least a passing siding somewhere along that length. Even if that is built, I still disagree that SEPTA should cover the distance. There is probably not much commuter traffic from that area into Philly, although maybe some into Wilmington, and I can't imagine it would be worthwhile for SEPTA to expand into that territory. On the other hand, MARC should step up and cover that area into Newark (which they have previously discussed). Once the expanded Newark station is completed, it should be able to handle transfers between SEPTA and MARC trains, although it cannot now with only one platform for commuter rail.

Of course, as a commuter from Philly to Elkton, I would LOVE to have SEPTA service extend that far, but I personally don't think that it's feasible.

eb684 wrote:I still disagree that SEPTA should cover the distance. There is probably not much commuter traffic from that area into Philly, although maybe some into Wilmington, and I can't imagine it would be worthwhile for SEPTA to expand into that territory. On the other hand, MARC should step up and cover that area into Newark (which they have previously discussed). Once the expanded Newark station is completed, it should be able to handle transfers between SEPTA and MARC trains, although it cannot now with only one platform for commuter rail.

Of course, as a commuter from Philly to Elkton, I would LOVE to have SEPTA service extend that far, but I personally don't think that it's feasible.

Since Delaware pays for SEPTA service in Delaware why wouldn't SEPTA want to do it? Why would MARC want to pay for service in Delaware? On the other hand if Delaware is willing to pay for it, why wouldn't they?

I'm talking about service that is primarily in Maryland, from Perryville to Newark. Since Newark is on the western edge of Delaware, any stops added to the extension (Elkton, maybe North East, and Perryville) are all located in Maryland. Why would Delaware be paying SEPTA for service in the state of Maryland? The only additional service in the state of Delaware would be between the Newark station and the MD/DE state line. Hence why I think MARC should cover that distance.

Also, while the extension was never, as far as I know, in SEPTA's long term plans, it was in MARC's plan at one point, so it would make a lot of sense for MARC to cover that line.

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eb684 wrote:If I'm not mistaken, regional rail service between Newark and Perryville requires an extra track to be built, or at least a passing siding somewhere along that length. Even if that is built, I still disagree that SEPTA should cover the distance. There is probably not much commuter traffic from that area into Philly, although maybe some into Wilmington, and I can't imagine it would be worthwhile for SEPTA to expand into that territory. On the other hand, MARC should step up and cover that area into Newark (which they have previously discussed). Once the expanded Newark station is completed, it should be able to handle transfers between SEPTA and MARC trains, although it cannot now with only one platform for commuter rail.

Of course, as a commuter from Philly to Elkton, I would LOVE to have SEPTA service extend that far, but I personally don't think that it's feasible.

Elkton is another good choice for expanded Wilmington/Newark service. Whenever I try to convince people that SEPTA should expand into Maryland, I make the argument that Cecil County is included in the Philadelphia area. SEPTA would simply be serving part of the Delaware Valley, albeit not in its five-county jurisdiction. If I was at the top of the command chain at SEPTA, I would do with the Wilmington/Newark Line what SEPTA is doing with the MLF and BSL: I would run this service for a limited interval of time in order to test the waters of possible service to Maryland, and possibly a commuter connection to MARC.

Mumphrey O. Yamm wrote:My own solution to this is to find some billionaire who loves trains, and convince him to buy out SEPTA and run the whole system as a hobby. I can’t see how that could work any worse, and at this point, it hardly seems any more unrealistic than SEPTA getting off its ass and running trains to West Chester.

I'm currently in college trying to become a doctor; however, I have always wanted to start a big, multinational pharmaceutical corporation. If I get rich off of that, then count me in!

If I was at the top of the command chain at SEPTA, I would do with the Wilmington/Newark Line what SEPTA is doing with the MLF and BSL: I would run this service for a limited interval of time in order to test the waters of possible service to Maryland, and possibly a commuter connection to MARC.

What are they doing with the El and the Broad Street Subway?

Mumphrey O. Yamm wrote:

If I was at the top of the command chain at SEPTA, I would do with the Wilmington/Newark Line what SEPTA is doing with the MLF and BSL: I would run this service for a limited interval of time in order to test the waters of possible service to Maryland, and possibly a commuter connection to MARC.

What are they doing with the El and the Broad Street Subway?

To me, it seems as though they are testing out the possibility of 24 hour service on the MFL and BSL. SEPTA says that 24 hour service will take place throughout the summer, but I think that it will be here to stay, especially with the ushering in of New Payment Technology. The ridership, combined with the fact that we are the 5th largest city in the US, pretty much justifies maintaining 24 hour service.