• Amtrak signaling on the NEC

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by Lucius Kwok
 
I work in software so that's the kind of engineering I'm most familiar with, and one of the most basic rules of writing software is that new lines of code will have bugs, and many of those bugs will only show up in testing. Another rule is that you don't just throw out old, tested, working code and replace it with new stuff unless it's really broken. The old code may be crufty and ugly to look at, but if it's been tested and used out in the wild, it's gold.

How I feel about these new signal systems is the same as with software. Don't throw out what's working just to have all brand-new stuff. Coded track circuits have been tested and in use for decades. CBTC is still new. It's going to have bugs. Let some small transit system test it out for 5-10 years.

Of course coded track circuits and a transponder/balise system aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I think that's the best way to go. Take small incremental steps. You should go directly from wayside signals with cab signals to a pure CBTC. Start by upgrading to coded track circuits with CSS and Speed Control, then add more stuff to it if it's necessary.

I think part of the reason PTC and CBTC are touted as solutions is because it's the sales people who are influencing the final decision makers, and not the engineering people. The makers of these systems stand to make a lot of money not only selling them, but, as has been said, also to fix the bugs that will inevitably crop up. It'll be guaranteed employment for the next 10 years for these companies if PTC is mandated.

The privately-owned freight railroads are better at cutting through the marketing crap and see CTBC for what it is. It's the public transit agencies and the state lawmakers who pass laws mandating PTC who get snookered by the sales people. I hope that there's at least one lawmaker in CA who will come to his/her senses and mandate something based on sound engineering principles and that's time-tested instead of something which is clearly designed to grab the headlines and make it look like the legislators are doing something when they haven't a clue.
  by Lucius Kwok
 
I was Googling for ACSES and from what I've read, the system, which is only installed between New Haven and Boston, was contracted in 1997, put in operation in 2000, but had problems through 2004. Here is a 2001 paper titled "Full PTC Today with Off the Shelf Technology: Amtrak’s ACSES Overlay on Expanded ATC":

http://www.arema.org/eseries/scriptcont ... /00022.pdf

ACSES is based on a system in use in Europe, it says.

Here's a FRA waiver granted to Amtrak in 2004 due to problems with transponders:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2004/04-6035.htm

And here's an article about the ALSTOM contract in 1997:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_19822444
  by neroden
 
Interesting discussion here.

I have to agree that the overly fancy GPS-based stuff is really not ready for general use. It was done to 'save money', but apparently is completely unusable on double-track lines, as well as the inherent problems with assuming the GPS system will always be there.

But there are tried and true systems, both track-circuit based and transponder/balise based, or some combination of both, which are ready to go, which supply cab signals, automatic train stops, and automatic train control. It seems clear that enforcing speed limits and stop signals has a lot of benefits, even if it does slow down operations; and cab signalling has benefits, period.

In Europe they're trying some fairly fancy schemes -- but they're trying them in an attempt to have a standardized overlay on a bunch of incompatible national systems, so that every engineer can read his cab signals and know what the signals mean, everywhere. Given that, they can't depend on track circuits, because the track circuits are already used domestically in incompatible ways. Hence the Eurobalises.

But here in the US we have multiple incompatible signal systems being developed all of which are quite new! That's just nuts. The only good excuse for devising a wholly new system is to *standardize* signalling throughout the country in a way that's satisfactory to everyone. Instead, each class I has its own proposed PTC system and Amtrak has *two*. Yeeech.
  by Jishnu
 
Lucius Kwok wrote: Here's a FRA waiver granted to Amtrak in 2004 due to problems with transponders:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2004/04-6035.htm
It should be noted that the problem was only with temporary speed restriction transponders. This waiver had no impact on the basic Positive Train Separation aspect of ACSES. It only asked to allow continued use of Form D's for temporary speed restrictions instead of using TSR transponders. If the PTS portion was affected Amtrak would not have been allowed to operate anything above 125mph on that track segment affected.

That waiver ended in 2005.