• Amtrak: PTC Mandate, Progress System Wide

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by Tadman
 
Mod Note: I understand the government is involved in FRA, PTC, and HSR like stink on s**t. For better or for worse. But please, let's not get into personal attacks or discussions of wars and entitlements. Wars and entitlements are only tangentially related to HSR, PTC, and the FRA.

Please remember to be objective about your comments.

Please do not get personal.

Please keep your political commentary to yourself.

Otherwise, we all know this thread has the future of a lead balloon.
  by george matthews
 
Could we have the title corrected to "denies" with lower case?
It was some time before I ceased to look for someone called Dennis (from Greek Dionysius ).
  by NRGeep
 
John_Perkowski wrote:Be my guest. Sooner or later our Nation is going to have to address debt, and if we do not lay all entitlements on the table, we're going to be exceedingly limited.

Meanwhile, Amtrak will be an easy target.
And if the Bush tax cuts for the rich are extended (which is championed by GOP deficit "hawks") we will witness not only the further erosion of "entitlements" but also more infrastructure decay of our highways, bridges and national welfare in general. "Trickle down" never worked for Amtrak or anyone...
  by JimBoylan
 
Jersey_Mike wrote:Why would they require the PTC be visible to both crew members?
Could it be due to a comment from a Labor Organization designed to eventually tend to require that there be "both crew members" in the cab?
  by neroden
 
Jersey_Mike wrote:
ATS should be implemented: Europe, China, and Russia are all "just doing it". But whether the FRA is capable of writing appropriate rules, I don't know. The rules should allow for off-the-shelf ERTMS/ETCS systems to qualify; if they don't, they're clearly misdesigned.
Off the shelf crap is still crap.
Luckily, ETCS isn't crap.
The problem isn't that we aren't using ETCS (which BTW is running into all sorts of deployment and cost problems with the local rail authorities dragging their feet as much as possible in face of the EU "mandate"),
Definitive counterexample: Switzerland.
but A) wireless systems aren't reliable,
Which is why ETCS can be implemented with mostly-wired equipment, and the wireless portion is done with frequent transmitters located on the tracks. :wink: And the wireless portion is only to deal with inconsistent meanings of track-broadcast signals, so we theoretically wouldn't need to do that in the US. If we had a national signalling standard. Which we don't. Because we're stupid that way.
B) when they fail the FRA imposes overly conservative fallback procedures and C) even if they work properly the system will slow trains down compared to current safe operations.
The problem is that the railroads are trying to cheap out and avoid installing trackside equipment. There really is nothing more to it than that. A system based on trackside equipment and circuit loops can be made to work fairly easily without suppressing speeds significantly (despite the example of SEPTA's misimplementation). But that costs money. (To install; it's not really that bad to maintain it.) So companies used to low margins choose not to spend the money.
Road vehicles have managed to get both faster and safer
Not exactly, but I won't go into details; the fact is that faster still == less safe in road vehicles, period, and road vehicles have basically followed a development pattern nearly as stupid as the FRA's "make 'em heavier so they'll survive better in a crash" attitude. There was a minor revolution in expressway design back in the 50s which aided safety -- since then, it's all been about making "safer crashes", not preventing crashes.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
JimBoylan wrote:
Jersey_Mike wrote:Why would they require the PTC be visible to both crew members?
Could it be due to a comment from a Labor Organization designed to eventually tend to require that there be "both crew members" in the cab?
This is likely the first time in a long time that I have included a quote in its entirety within my material, but such represents a reasonable inquiry from an informed layman and an industry professional's response to such.

If such comes to pass, namely that a passenger train operator is required to have two men in the cab (presumably including EMU equipment which has been 'Engineer only' ever since the railroads "won that one" during the '30's when the Fireman craft realized "it could be curtains'), all I can say is "taxpayers and farepayers, hold on to your wallets".

Since there are already two men in the cab, namely Engineer and Conductor, on mainline Through freights (Local freights are often assigned a Brakeman for carrier convenience, i.e. get the work done), there should not be an immediate effect. However, some carriers are envisioning the day of Through freights assigned Engineer only, in which case the FRA's promulgations could be used against any such initiative.

Finally lest we forget, there is always a railroad manager today that dreams of "a big 1:1 Lionel set"; FWIW safe assumption there are airline execs who dream of having you and I flying about in drones.
  by Jersey_Mike
 
Definitive counterexample: Switzerland.
Which lines were signaled and how much did it cost and how much does it now cost to maintain? The system can be made to work, its just not cost effective.
Which is why ETCS can be implemented with mostly-wired equipment, and the wireless portion is done with frequent transmitters located on the tracks. :wink: And the wireless portion is only to deal with inconsistent meanings of track-broadcast signals, so we theoretically wouldn't need to do that in the US. If we had a national signalling standard. Which we don't. Because we're stupid that way.
The track mounted transponders are for navigation only, everything else for levels 2 and 3 is wireless. Moreover, Europe is enamored with centralized computer based signaling. That means track circuit information is transmitted to a central computer where all the vital logic takes place and then commands are issues to dumb field stations, or in the case of ETCS, the train itself, so something like ETCS is a more natural fit with their existing signaling posture. Fortunately in North America our signaling system is distributed so there is no single point of failure and it is easier to transfer assets between corporate entities. We also run
railroads
, not a glorified mass transit system and railroad signaling needs to be tailored to the operating style and characteristics of the company that uses them. European countries have unified signaling schemes because they were engineered by state run rail monopolies. Excuse me if I prefer a little competition.
The problem is that the railroads are trying to cheap out and avoid installing trackside equipment. There really is nothing more to it than that. A system based on trackside equipment and circuit loops can be made to work fairly easily without suppressing speeds significantly (despite the example of SEPTA's misimplementation). But that costs money. (To install; it's not really that bad to maintain it.) So companies used to low margins choose not to spend the money.
You are correct that with a sufficient density of transmitters and transponders the system will work better, but that will greatly increase the cost and cost is the primary problem of PTC. The benefit of reduced accidents simply does not justify the cost of PTC and certainly does not justify a rapid transit level of signaling infrastructure as is seen in Europe. Now do you think that the freight railroads care about performance problems of a budget model PTC system? No, of course not, their trains are already dog slow. The performance hit will have a reduced impact as large freight trains are rarely in a position to hug the envelope of what track and signal speeds allow. The dirt will fall onto the highest performance users such as passenger trains and possibly some forms of intermodal.

I originally thought that a track circuit and transponder system like ACSES or ASES would solve the problems, but engineers on this forum have complained about overly restrictive speed curves and positive stop targets. That's the problem, when you allow lawyers and managers and regulators to all put their fingers in the batter in the name of "safety" they're going to spoil the cake. The only way to prevent that sort of BS is to have a system where bureaucratic busybodies can't slow it down and that means operation by humans in the field with minimal technological oversight. It's the same reason we don't want national ID cards or gun registration.
Not exactly, but I won't go into details; the fact is that faster still == less safe in road vehicles, period, and road vehicles have basically followed a development pattern nearly as stupid as the FRA's "make 'em heavier so they'll survive better in a crash" attitude. There was a minor revolution in expressway design back in the 50s which aided safety -- since then, it's all been about making "safer crashes", not preventing crashes.
In automobiles drivers have been allowed to risk compensate by steadily improving the safety available for a given level of speed. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that and for years the FRA has agreed, requiring additional safety features only as speeds increase. The heartbreak with PTC is that it doesn't allow for performance increases to compensate for the decreased risk. One might say that we could now use lighter, less safe, equipment, but unfortunately PTC doesn't even address the real source of the risks, namely grade crossing accidents and non-signaling related derailments.
  by Jishnu
 
Adirondacker wrote: ...gotta have ACSES if they want to have trains from the Hudson or New Haven lines go into Penn Station don't they? A change. That they have documented on the MTA's website...
Not really. Going into Penn Station has nothing to do with ACSES. ACSES has to do with meeting the PTC mandate on MNRR. ACSES is an obvious choice overlay given that the underlying CSS on MNRR is pretty much the same technology as that on the NEC, barring a different pulse code frequency or two, maybe. And now given the lease, it is almost certain that POU to SDY/Hoffmans will also get ACSES to fulfill the PTC mandate. So all in all it makes a lot of sense even in the context of the Empire Corridor overall.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Jishnu wrote:
Adirondacker wrote: ...gotta have ACSES if they want to have trains from the Hudson or New Haven lines go into Penn Station don't they? A change. That they have documented on the MTA's website...
Not really. Going into Penn Station has nothing to do with ACSES. ACSES has to do with meeting the PTC mandate on MNRR. ACSES is an obvious choice overlay given that the underlying CSS on MNRR is pretty much the same technology as that on the NEC, barring a different pulse code frequency or two, maybe. And now given the lease, it is almost certain that POU to SDY/Hoffmans will also get ACSES to fulfill the PTC mandate. So all in all it makes a lot of sense even in the context of the Empire Corridor overall.
Empire's programmed into the Amtrak Cap Improvements plan for ACSES, and MNRR is adopting it as their PTC technology of choice. Makes no difference ultimately; both passenger carriers will use it on the line. LIRR and NJ Transit likewise committed so that takes care of every single RR going to either of New York's terminals.
  by Jishnu
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote: Empire's programmed into the Amtrak Cap Improvements plan for ACSES, and MNRR is adopting it as their PTC technology of choice. Makes no difference ultimately; both passenger carriers will use it on the line. LIRR and NJ Transit likewise committed so that takes care of every single RR going to either of New York's terminals.
Yep. And I'd be surprised if SEPTA does not go the same route. Afterall they will have to use ACSES on the NEC and Main Line anyway.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Jishnu wrote:
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote: Empire's programmed into the Amtrak Cap Improvements plan for ACSES, and MNRR is adopting it as their PTC technology of choice. Makes no difference ultimately; both passenger carriers will use it on the line. LIRR and NJ Transit likewise committed so that takes care of every single RR going to either of New York's terminals.
Yep. And I'd be surprised if SEPTA does not go the same route. Afterall they will have to use ACSES on the NEC and Main Line anyway.
Actually, on further review SEPTA has committed to it. I don't know if MARC has beyond NEC-running lines cause they operate on a fair amount of private trackage. But otherwise every northeastern passenger railroad has signed on. Plus Pan Am, P&W, and NECR who don't have a choice on a majority of their operating trackage, and I would think every CSX subdivision south and east of Selkirk where there's so much ACSES territory their homegrown system won't be worth the expense.
  by mtuandrew
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Actually, on further review SEPTA has committed to it. I don't know if MARC has beyond NEC-running lines cause they operate on a fair amount of private trackage. But otherwise every northeastern passenger railroad has signed on. Plus Pan Am, P&W, and NECR who don't have a choice on a majority of their operating trackage, and I would think every CSX subdivision south and east of Selkirk where there's so much ACSES territory their homegrown system won't be worth the expense.
In fact, CSX isn't using a homegrown system anymore - they and the rest of the Big Four US-based railroads are installing a WABCO product called Electronic Train Management System, or ETMS. Here's a rundown of the various PTC systems and overlays either in use or being developed by American railroads. I don't know how up to date this page is, but it seems to be within a couple of years. This presentation from WABCO, the producer of ETMS, seems to claim that Amtrak's ACSES and the freight ETMS are interoperable to some regard, but I can't decipher to what degree.
  by Jersey_Mike
 
Still don't hold your breath on PTC implementation. Congress has already cut the funding it promised in regard to aiding adoption and then the multi billion dollar price tag hit cash strapped public transport agencies look either for the FRA to get out its waiver pad, a court challenge or congress to include a rollback as part of some deficit reduction compromise. The good news is that if government remains divided, repeal of the mandate could be horse traded for renewed Amtrak or commuter rail funding.
  by DutchRailnut
 
PTC on all passenger carrying lines is still required by 2016, only thing backed off is on all Hazmat lines, cause it just about included entire freight network.
  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 37