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Amtrak: Operating Deficit, Government Operation, etc.

Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

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Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by gokeefe
 
David Benton wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:04 pm Seems a bit strange when it could be spent on some necessary improvements.
Not at all. It's a solid financial management strategy that is allowing them to build cash reserves. It makes them a better candidate for additional financing from the government because they are seen as having a cushion if things go awry. The cash actually allows them to leverage larger loans for improvements.

David Benton wrote: ↑Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:04 pmWould seem to me a good strategy would be to say , give us the capital and we will improve service and turn a profit on operating expenses.

To the best of my knowledge that's exactly how it works right now. The capital budget is funded separately from operations. Amtrak's build in cash on hand is resulting from their ability to better manage their finances.

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by gokeefe
 
Dcell wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:55 am Are there really 500 Amfleet coaches? Seems like way too many.
Slightly less than that. They're spread out all over the country with the bulk of them in service on the Northeast Regionals. They are just barely able to keep the service they have running at present. They are also unable to expand service or running longer trains when/where justified due to shortages in additional capacity.

In particular shortages in Amfleet II coaches (long distance configuration) used in the Atlantic Coast Service mean the trains never expand on the winter to better serve the Florida market at its peak times.

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by mtuandrew
 
gokeefe wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:23 amIn particular shortages in Amfleet II coaches (long distance configuration) used in the Atlantic Coast Service mean the trains never expand on the winter to better serve the Florida market at its peak times.
It has also meant Amtrak doesn’t approach the charter market anymore. Whether they would willingly take charters with sufficient equipment anyway, that’s another matter.

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by gokeefe
 
mtuandrew wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:33 amIt has also meant Amtrak doesn’t approach the charter market anymore. Whether they would willingly take charters with sufficient equipment anyway, that’s another matter.
Completely agreed in that regard. I've dealt with that problem first hand and if you can even get a quote that doesn't mean the logistics will work.

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by MACTRAXX
 
gokeefe wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:23 am
Dcell wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:55 am Are there really 500 Amfleet coaches? Seems like way too many.
Slightly less than that. They're spread out all over the country with the bulk of them in service on the Northeast Regionals. They are just barely able to keep the service they have running at present. They are also unable to expand service or running longer trains when/where justified due to shortages in additional capacity.

In particular shortages in Amfleet II coaches (long distance configuration) used in the Atlantic Coast Service mean the trains never expand on the winter to better serve the Florida market at its peak times.
D, GOK and Everyone:

The total number of the Amfleet One order during the second half of the 1970s was 492 cars.
The Amfleet Two order in the early 1980s total was 150 cars.
Does anyone have a current total in service of these car fleets?
There have been retirements and write-offs over time as a result of wrecks or other factors...

The Amfleet orders from Budd were placed during the Amtrak presidency of Paul Reistrup - who may be
one of Amtrak's best previous presidents. During that era Amtrak was establishing itself as a transportation
entity that was "here to stay". The Amfleet car orders may well have been one of the best moves in the
history of Amtrak - its longevity in service speaks for itself.

Amtrak needs MORE not less equipment for the system as a whole. Where would Amtrak be had the Amfleet
cars not been added to the fleet? MACTRAXX
Last edited by MACTRAXX on Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by Rockingham Racer
 
MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:46 pm
gokeefe wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:23 am
Dcell wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:55 am Are there really 500 Amfleet coaches? Seems like way too many.
Slightly less than that. They're spread out all over the country with the bulk of them in service on the Northeast Regionals. They are just barely able to keep the service they have running at present. They are also unable to expand service or running longer trains when/where justified due to shortages in additional capacity.

In particular shortages in Amfleet II coaches (long distance configuration) used in the Atlantic Coast Service mean the trains never expand on the winter to better serve the Florida market at its peak times.
D, GOK and Everyone:
I'm one of the "everyone", but you haven't said anything to us. :-D

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by MACTRAXX
 
Rockingham Racer wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:49 pm
MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:46 pm
gokeefe wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:23 am
Dcell wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:55 am Are there really 500 Amfleet coaches? Seems like way too many.
Slightly less than that. They're spread out all over the country with the bulk of them in service on the Northeast Regionals. They are just barely able to keep the service they have running at present. They are also unable to expand service or running longer trains when/where justified due to shortages in additional capacity.

In particular shortages in Amfleet II coaches (long distance configuration) used in the Atlantic Coast Service mean the trains never expand on the winter to better serve the Florida market at its peak times.
D, GOK and Everyone:
I'm one of the "everyone", but you haven't said anything to us. :-D
RR: Note my post above - I was testing the send function after my device lost power :P ...MACTRAXX

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by Greg Moore
 
Dcell wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:55 am Are there really 500 Amfleet coaches? Seems like way too many. The new Hudson River tunnel is the top rail infrastructure priority for Amtrak and all other capital purchases such as new rail cars must be deferred. I think Anderson sees this as well.
Too many?
Consider the DownEaster would love to add cars and I think another round trip but was told, "sorry no more cars available".
I believe Virginia is facing similar issues.
And I suspect there's a number of other places that would expand... IF there were cars available.

I suspect Amtrak really needs about 700 coach cars going forward.

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by mtuandrew
 
Greg: is that 700 Amfleet & Horizon replacement cars in addition to the Siemens cars going to the states, or including those cars?

I happen to think the LD fleet deserves to be doubled in size in an attempt to reduce the National system losses. Adding a few coaches per LD train ought to allow Amtrak to approach bus prices instead of rivaling airline fares, while still making more money per train and reducing the per-passenger loss considerably.

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by David Benton
 
mtuandrew wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:11 pm Greg: is that 700 Amfleet & Horizon replacement cars in addition to the Siemens cars going to the states, or including those cars?

I happen to think the LD fleet deserves to be doubled in size in an attempt to reduce the National system losses. Adding a few coaches per LD train ought to allow Amtrak to approach bus prices instead of rivaling airline fares, while still making more money per train and reducing the per-passenger loss considerably.
Only if they get OBS to agree to cover the extra cars with the same number of staff. Otherwise the costs would probably outstrip the revenue.

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by gokeefe
 
mtuandrew wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:11 pmAdding a few coaches per LD train ought to allow Amtrak to approach bus prices instead of rivaling airline fares, while still making more money per train and reducing the per-passenger loss considerably.
Across the board increases in train consists will not solve the problem. There are plenty of routes that never sell out. It has to be route and season specific. Right now Amtrak is able to curtail train consists based on low demand in the winter on some routes (western transcontinentals). But it does not have enough of the right kind of cars to meet seasonal demand peaks (Florida on the Atlantic Coast Service). Single level long distance coaches (Amfleet II) are the weak spot. There is every reason to believe that Amtrak could see far better revenue yields if they had some flexibility in the East to meet demand.

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by Gilbert B Norman
 
mtuandrew wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:11 pm Adding a few coaches per LD train ought to allow Amtrak to approach bus prices instead of rivaling airline fares,
Mr. Stephens, even if you were when first signing up here during "my watch as Sheriff" around here, you are no longer a "starving college student".

Amtrak need not compete with bus fares; they offer, at their worst, a service with far greater comfort - including the convenience of purchasing on board "something resembling edible" food, and to ease the pain, alcohol.

In short, why compete on fares when they have a superior product.

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by David Benton
 
At the moment, Amtrak is reluctant to switch cars in/out enroute. A sold out train may only show as 60 -70 % seat utilisation , as few are full over all sections. So they average 30 -40 % load factor over the year .
Absent switching, The best way to raise the load factor . and so justify new cars, is to sell the empty sections. Seasonal not so bad as you can do maintenance and move to other routes.
I think the best way to fill the empty sectors is to offer Thruway buses , connecting to these sections. An example of this might be the Crescent south of Atlanta. Thruway services from the likes of Chattanooga to Anniston to connect with the train southbound, would fill some empty seats. How many is the question.

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by gokeefe
 
I strongly agree that Thruway connections can help improve sales in areas with low ridership.

Re: Amtrak Operating Deficit Appears Likely to End

  by mtuandrew
 
In some cases they do exceed bus and even airline quality. In others, especially frequency off the corridor, Amtrak is nowhere near either mode.

Also consider, Amtrak and the others are all at a disadvantage in re: the last mile. A lower net train fare, even for business or first class, allows any traveler to consider Amtrak + Lyft ride-share or Amtrak + Thruway as part of a comprehensive travel plan instead of their own car. It wouldn’t have helped me on this particular trip (about to board DL1101 after celebrating my parents’ 50th) but would be a lot of help to someone considering a Chicago hub trip.
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