AMTRAK NEC: Springfield Shuttle/Regional/Valley Flyer/Inland Routing

Mackensen wrote:

The EGE wrote:

ThirdRail7 wrote:...the route will still take close to 5 hours...

Atlantic City I cannot speak for; I know next to nothing about the service. But Cape Cod service was cut in the late 80s, and the last daily round-trip Inland Route service was 2002. The last ten years have made most everything we know about passenger rail viability from before that irrelevant. Gas was about a buck thirty five in 2002. Now it's near 4 dollars most days. Things we thought unthinkable are happening. Norfolk has rail service again. The Black Hawk, cut in 1981, is coming back. Maine has not only extended to Brunswick, but is considering commuter service. None of these made sense in 2002; they do now.

The Inland Route may not have made sense in 2002. But it's 2012 now, and it looks like a whole lot more sense.

I believe the Cape Codder lasted at least as a seasonal weekend service until 1996. MBTA is reviving Boston-Hyannis service this year although it's not clear over which route.

What two routes between Boston and Hyannis are you talking about?
Noel Weaver

The EGE wrote:... the last daily round-trip Inland Route service was 2002. The last ten years have made most everything we know about passenger rail viability from before that irrelevant. Gas was about a buck thirty five in 2002. Now it's near 4 dollars most days. Things we thought unthinkable are happening. Norfolk has rail service again. [...] The Inland Route may not have made sense in 2002. But it's 2012 now, and it looks like a whole lot more sense.

Here are some other things that have changed since 2002 in what we know about travel markets:
1) Southwest Airlines no longer feels the need for overwhelming frequencies. Back in 2002, when Southwest entered a 200-mile market vs the auto or against an incumbent airline, it didn't enter until it could deploy "high frequency" service...maybe 3x to 5x per day. As Southwest's choice of markets got longer (and less competitive with Auto, like BOS-BNA (Nashville)) they were happy to offer just 2x per day because it was a monopoly route for them. Southwest demonstrates that monopolists can win with low frequency service (the other airlines did too, but Southwest is more "changed").

2) Mobile, connected computing has changed the conception of all travel since 2002. In 2006 we got the video iPod--suddenly being a passenger on a bus could be better (more fun) than driving. Then 2007 gave us the first Asus "Netbook", the iPhone, and the Kindle, and while staring into these, even transit buses looks better than car. None of these "work" for car drivers--you look at your car and say "I can't spend 2 hours *alone* in there". In 2002, a car trip from WOR to HVN or NYP or PHL meant "freedom of the open road", now it means "disconnected." By 2009, 3G connections for business laptops became "expected", the iPod Touch debuted, and early WiFi systems served 153,000 air passengers that year (by 2011, 153 *million* air passengers used WiFi). The iPad debuts in 2010. Since the last Inland in 2002, we realize that to work or play as we are accustomed, we need to be on a bus, train, or plane, and not a car. And the boss knows this too--she expects us to work on our business trip, not while the hours with music or phoning (somewhere in there, the Blackberry killed business voicemail because office email could follow you anywhere...you can't say "I'll spend my drive to New York doing voicemail")

3) Other modes have become less competitive, generally. Cars became less competitive, as EGE notes, thanks to congestion, gas, & tolls (all of which have "grown" faster than the economy) Airline security has become more onerous. 2002 gave us the "shoes off" rule (after the shoe bomber), 2006 gave us the 3-1-1 liquids limit (after a European incident) and 2010 gave us the pat-down (after the underwear bomber). All have been good for demand/support for trains.

4) Driving WOR-PVD to catch the train became nicer between 2002 and 2006 (http://www.bostonroads.com/roads/MA-146/). This can cut against or for revived Inland Service:

4a) Cutting against revived Inland Service, it says that WOR-NYP customers are already well served from PVD and won't patronize new Inland Service. The WOR customer, instead of slogging into BOS for an NYC trip (by car or MBTA) can have a shorter (by ~:30), leave-later-but-arrive-the-same-time, more reliable trip by driving down a spacious MA/RI Rt 146 to PVD and catching the exact same NYP-bound trains that s/he used to drive to BOS to catch. The FRA customers probably drive to RTE for the abundant parking (opened in 2000). Since the WOR/FRA area is fairly "suburban" basically *all* trips to NYC are staring by car (whether to an MBTA lot or to PVD), so they might as well drive to PVD and RTE rather than to a closer inland station.

4b) Cutting for revived Inland Service, I think it means much of PVD's success/growth is car-phobes and air-phobes from WOR/FRA who would like *even better* to be going from closer to home. (Remember, every minute in the car, is a minute we're visually cut off from the internet Collective...we get jittery, nauseous, dry mouth...

MBTA is reviving Boston-Hyannis service this year although it's not clear over which route.

Boston-Braintree-Middleboro-Buzzards Bay-Hyannis, summer weekends only. If you go over to the MBTA board you can find a lengthy discussion. BTW, this is not being funded by the MBTA, which has no money for route expansion, but rather by the Cape Cod Regional Transit Authority.

Mackensen wrote:

The EGE wrote:

ThirdRail7 wrote:...the route will still take close to 5 hours...

Atlantic City I cannot speak for; I know next to nothing about the service. But Cape Cod service was cut in the late 80s, and the last daily round-trip Inland Route service was 2002. The last ten years have made most everything we know about passenger rail viability from before that irrelevant. Gas was about a buck thirty five in 2002. Now it's near 4 dollars most days. Things we thought unthinkable are happening. Norfolk has rail service again. The Black Hawk, cut in 1981, is coming back. Maine has not only extended to Brunswick, but is considering commuter service. None of these made sense in 2002; they do now.

The Inland Route may not have made sense in 2002. But it's 2012 now, and it looks like a whole lot more sense.

I believe the Cape Codder lasted at least as a seasonal weekend service until 1996. MBTA is reviving Boston-Hyannis service this year although it's not clear over which route.

The T/Cape Rail service is going over the Old Colony. It's on a regular Middleboro commuter rail time slot, special price for the Hyannis trip, bike rack car and Cape Rail-supplied bar car included with drink service opening for business at Middleboro station. Total operating cost for the season: $190,000.

Amtrak went Attleboro-Taunton-Middleboro via the Middleboro Secondary. That is not in the cards yet. Although who knows...if Year 1 of the Hyannis train is a smashing success RIDOT could always approach the T with a funding contribution to add a Providence-Hyannis run to the schedule on the old CC route. The T's definitely willing to do it if it's not their money at stake. I would think that's farther off, though, since the M'boro Secondary still has a couple un-gated crossings whereas the Old Colony south of Middleboro is almost entirely upgraded with gates and a little easier to square for liability purposes.

Please, EGE & I had two great posts above on what's changed since 2002, and theyve gotten utterly stomped on by an off-topic Old Colony tangent.

Mr. Mackenson appeared to be looking for some information that I could provide, so I provided it and Mr. F-line then elaborated. That's the helpful thing to do and I don't think that comprises "stomping" on your topic.

Back to the NEC inland, please. I don't object to points of clarification regarding ancillary references posited for a position, nor corrections, but let's not go too far.

The EGE wrote: Amtrak has what, 4 or 6 locomotives and 6 coaches on Shuttle service, that will be scarcely needed when NHHS commuter rail happens? That wouldn't take equipment away from any other route. Why can't those simply be turned into an Inland Route service? They don't have to meet every Regional; merely meeting some would be an upgrade.

what is planned to happen to the shuttle service once the NHHS commuter service begins? it seems like it would become a more expensive version of the NHHS service, and i think changing to the shuttle train at New Haven would be the same as changing to a commuter train. If some sort of restructuring is going to happen, it could be a good thing for the inland route's prospects.

fishball wrote: what is planned to happen to the shuttle service once the NHHS commuter service begins? it seems like it would become a more expensive version of the NHHS service, and i think changing to the shuttle train at New Haven would be the same as changing to a commuter train. If some sort of restructuring is going to happen, it could be a good thing for the inland route's prospects.

The MA State Rail Plan discusses adding service between Greenfield and Springfield, up to a possible 6 per day. This would be in addition to the Vermonter and an additional train to VT. I don't know about 6 per day, but depending on best use of equipment and scheduling, the NHV-SPG shuttles could become NHV-Greenfield shuttles. The commuter service would provide the higher frequency of service for trips between NHV-Hartford-SPG.

There's a topic in MNRR forum on NHHS service. I believe it discusses what's to become of the shuttle.

I'll make this quick:

afiggatt wrote: Future/restored service over the Inland Route is listed in the NEC Master Infrastructure Plan. There is even a sample schedule in the New Haven-Hartford-Springfield corridor EIS document (appendix #2) that includes an Inland Route train (originating NFK and with a scheduled stop in Palmer MA no less).

The upgrades to the NHV-SPG corridor should cut trip times on that segment by ~30 minutes. Trip times on the SPG-BOS segment can be reduced, how much and how much it will cost is the subject of a Mass DOT $694K study.

As to "anything that indicates Massachusetts' renewed interest in the Inland route", well there is the 2010 State Rail Plan.

An Inland Route train is not going to be as fast for through NYP-BOS service as the NEC. Well, not without spending a LOT of money. But it would provide direct service between Hartford to Worcester, Boston and Worcester to Hartford, NHV, NYP. With improved trip times, there is a market there for several Inland Route trains a day. Before one scoffs at the idea, one should ask which route serves the 2nd, 4th, and 6th most populated cities in New England? (Of course, they both terminate at the most populated, BOS).

I read the report which mirrors Amtrak's Knowledge corridor long range plan. No one scoffed at the idea of the inland service. Indeed, I have said many times: when you have extra equipment and you have funding, sure..although I'd like to see a few other things jump the ahead of this service on the list.

Speaking of which, please notice the lack of it for the foreseeable future. Both plans have yet to identify equipment. Which is why I keep saying, the MBTA could probably do this faster and cheaper and with more frequency. In turn, they could connect to the corridor at SPG, which will have additional frequency. 100 minutes is not that unheard of. Take a look at at some of the LIRR, MARC and NJT schedules. The outer fringes of their systems are in the 120 minute range. I believe LIRR42 stated his LIRR approached 3 hours....with a transfer if he wants to go into Manhattan.

Which brings me to Mr Arlington:

Arlington wrote: Here are some other things that have changed since 2002 in what we know about travel markets:

That's all I need right there. Here's something that has changed that you left out: The Downeaster service began, the Acela service expanded and other corridor services extended. What that did was limit the pool of equipment. With the Acela service expanding, that limited your slots on the congested Metro-North territory.

This lead to above: You don't have the equipment to launch an extension of the inland route unless you pull it from another source, like the shuttles or the shore line.

To all of the people that think the SPG shuttles are going to become available, I suggest that our resident financial analyst is very close to the mark:

afiggatt wrote: The MA State Rail Plan discusses adding service between Greenfield and Springfield, up to a possible 6 per day. This would be in addition to the Vermonter and an additional train to VT. I don't know about 6 per day, but depending on best use of equipment and scheduling, the NHV-SPG shuttles could become NHV-Greenfield shuttles. The commuter service would provide the higher frequency of service for trips between NHV-Hartford-SPG.

[/quote]

By the way, additional equipment is still needed for this.

This whole circus reminds me of something Mr G'okeefe mentioned. The railroads are becoming victims of their own success.

MattW wrote:Unless commercial traffic needs the bridges, Amtrak should take the USCG to court over the openings. I fail to see why pleasurecraft should take precedence over a transportation backbone.

The US Coast Guard academy, USNS New London (home of the Naval Submarine School and homeport of half the Atlantic Fleet's boats) and a couple of shipyards are upstream of Thames River draw. And the Connecticut River is navigable as far as Hartford. We're not just talking car dealers in 40' Silvertons here.

Regarding the Thames, with all these military assets upstream, it is a wonder that within "rounding errors" in the DOD's budget, Amtrak was not built an appropriate height fixed bridge.

So far as regarding priority over the opening of bridges over both the Connecticut and Thames (also throw in the four or more others with moveable bridges within CT), be it noted that the Fairfield Navy Admiralty likely more clout where it counts than does that at The Pentagon.

Sorry, but I haven't been on here much lately.

To sum up why Inland Route trains won't come back: The biggest reason is CSXT doesn't want the liabilty of running passenger trains over their property.
Also, there are very few crews that are qualified BOS-SPG and most people don't want to keep their qualifications up because it's easy to get in trouble on CSXT.

A few pages back someone suggested NYP-ALB-BOS.....hello?!? That's 40 extra miles which would make the trip twice as long, simply a railbuff trip.

Cape Cod: If Hyannis to Boston is a hit, which it will be, using the old Cape Codder route Attleboro to Middleboro may happen, but most likely by MBTA&Mass Coastal.

CSX Conductor wrote:Sorry, but I haven't been on here much lately.

To sum up why Inland Route trains won't come back: The biggest reason is CSXT doesn't want the liabilty of running passenger trains over their property.
Also, there are very few crews that are qualified BOS-SPG and most people don't want to keep their qualifications up because it's easy to get in trouble on CSXT.

Clearly all any of us are doing is speculating. However I would say that if, at some point in the future the Commonwealth of Massachussetts decided to restore another frequency BOS-SPG (which I think they will), and they go to CSX and say either "we're going to buy your railroad from you for $xxx,000,000.00 and grant you freight rights in perpetuity" or "we're going to fund more Amtrak service, and here's $xxx,000,000.00 in double track and signal improvements we're prepared to fund," CSX is going to cooperate, if for no other reason than that management doesn't want the investors to pull a Canadian Pacific on them.

CSX Conductor wrote:A few pages back someone suggested NYP-ALB-BOS.....hello?!? That's 40 extra miles which would make the trip twice as long, simply a railbuff trip.

Only sane reason I could think of to do that would be to balance equipment-- basically it would be an Empire Service train from NYP-ALB, then a second frequency ALB-SPG-BOS. Probably only 5% of the passengers would stay on for the whole ride-- just like I can't imagine more than 5% of the passengers ride all the way from Newport News to Boston South on Train 94.