Amtrak HHP-8 Discussion: Use, Reliability, Disposition

STrRedWolf wrote: ...would BBD be able to foist these onto NJ Transit?

Given NJT will buy anything BBD proposes to them? Given that NJT won't buy from anyone else?

Of course, NJT swears their current issues are 'temporary', which is funny because NJT sucking has been a temporary thing going on like 15-20 years now, but hey, any day and with more funding, maybe they'll put some effort in....

15 or 20 years? I don't know about that. They've bought some unimpressive equipment, but in the early 2000s, they were doing pretty great.

NJT Just bought a bunch more ALP45s, so i doubt they will take HHPs. Amtrak for sure is not taking that junk back. NJT only likes buying new stuff and wasting my money.

if there is no potential at MARC, BBD will likely part them out/scrap the units. With the original acelas going away soon the need to continue for Alstom to have a reason to produce the spare parts and maintain the electronics will become nill.

Very narrow window for these to appear under MBTA flag. It's unlikely.
1) MA governor Charlie Baker (R) will be easily reelected. I don't read him as anti-MBTA capital spending however.
2) MBTA needs more power. They have nothing on order. HSP-46 are Tier-III so they can't be reordered. Some of the other locomotives are rather old.
3) These HHP-8s would have to be serviced in the Amtrak facilities in Boston or in a new facility.
4) They would probably have to add some additional electric substations and station track catanery
5) Have to negotiate reasonable electric rates with Amtrak.
6) Electric locomotives supposedly accelerate & run faster. If PVD-BOS line CR trains run closer to Amtrak regional speeds that might increase NEC capacity.
7) If these are refurbished, how long would they last? Would they be unicorns?

PennDOT is a clever thought, yes. I am sure that PennDOT has not had this clever thought yet

I thought SLE was getting M8s or something. Not a bad thought otherwise.

What about another non-operating-entity? RIPTA or DelDOT for example, under contract to MBTA and SEPTA (or MARC/Keolis) respectively.

RIPTA and DelDOT both make sense to me. Rhode Island is already pushing hard for more service.

In regards to the MBTA I agree the window is narrow. With regards to power I doubt the network up there is so stretched that they would need more power. It's practically brand new ...

mtuandrew wrote:PennDOT is a clever thought, yes. I am sure that PennDOT has not had this clever thought yet

I thought SLE was getting M8s or something. Not a bad thought otherwise.

What about another non-operating-entity? RIPTA or DelDOT for example, under contract to MBTA and SEPTA (or MARC/Keolis) respectively.

RIPTA hooking up with MBTA would be best, which would relieve some of the financial pressure off of MBTA. It's slim, but there's a scheme to make it work.

DelDOT currently has it bus bridged between Newark, DE and Perryville, MD... but a few track-related things need to happen before MARC (Amtrak) runs past Perryville.

(BTW, Keolis isn't running MARC service along the NEC; Amtrak is. BBD is running it on CSX lines. Keolis lost the bid last decade.)

Might be a good time for BBD to buy 1 of the Amtrak Hippos,upgrade it and send it on a Demo run to MBTA territory,maybe get a sale or 2.

BandA wrote:2) MBTA needs more power. They have nothing on order. HSP-46 are Tier-III so they can't be reordered. Some of the other locomotives are rather old.

Of all the reasons this might happen this would be the one. Power shortage with no end in sight. At that point instead of "Why?, it becomes, "Why not?".

If these units are rebuilt to the same spec. as MARC's fleet it would not be too difficult for Amtrak to maintain them both in Wilmington.

15 HHP-8s would potentially allow for the complete retirement of all GP40MCs that are still in service (if any) through displacement.

How many diesel loos now cover PVD - BOS via the electric line ? Take that number and multiply by 1.6 to get necessary HHPs immediately needed. Now add in the very unlikely adding CAT to the diesel portion ? ? ? Fairmont line ?

What I’m not clear is who owns the 8s after Amtrak concludes the lease. Do the banks continue to hold title and therefore could simply send them for scrap without Bombardier having the option to regain and flip them?

BandA wrote:Very narrow window for these to appear under MBTA flag. It's unlikely.
1) MA governor Charlie Baker (R) will be easily reelected. I don't read him as anti-MBTA capital spending however.
2) MBTA needs more power. They have nothing on order. HSP-46 are Tier-III so they can't be reordered. Some of the other locomotives are rather old.
3) These HHP-8s would have to be serviced in the Amtrak facilities in Boston or in a new facility.
4) They would probably have to add some additional electric substations and station track catanery
5) Have to negotiate reasonable electric rates with Amtrak.
6) Electric locomotives supposedly accelerate & run faster. If PVD-BOS line CR trains run closer to Amtrak regional speeds that might increase NEC capacity.

7) If these are refurbished, how long would they last? Would they be unicorns?

BA: No...They would be ARMADILLOS (my nickname for the HHP8s) Ever notice the resemblance?
All kidding aside: Good points on using them on the MBTA Providence Line...Faster electric powered trains would only enhance this route...MACTRAXX

MBTA could use them on the Providence Line no doubt, but do they really need them?
Let’s review their locomotive roster, and how many of them they need.
Per this Wiki article they need 58 train sets for today’s operations.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBTA_Commuter_Rail" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here’s a listing of locomotive roster
40 HSP 46 by MPI
2 MP36PH-3C by MPI
12 F40PHM-2C by MK (*2003-2004*)
25 F40PH-2C by EMD (*2001-2003*)
25 GP40MC by GMD (*1997*)
The total is 104 diesel locomotives. Granted 42 of them are fairly new, leaving 62 reaching end of life, but all have been thoroughly *refurbished to extend their lives*. MBTA also has 3 other diesel locomotives not used in revenue services, being used for maintenance work trains.
Amtrak leased 15 HHP-8 and MARC bought 6 to add to their 4 AEM7s.
If MARC could operate the 40 miles between Baltimore and D.C. with 10 electric locomotives, I think MBTA could operate the 43 miles between Boston and Providence with 15.

east point wrote:How many diesel loos now cover PVD - BOS via the electric line ? Take that number and multiply by 1.6 to get necessary HHPs immediately needed. Now add in the very unlikely adding CAT to the diesel portion ? ? ?

PVD currently has 8 sets of equipment to cover AM and PM rush-hour service solely for the Providence (and Wickford Jct trips), three of which are 8 car sets. 6 sets are based out of Pawtucket yard, and the other two are out of Readville yard.

Maybe they would want some "greenwash", I.E Electric operation been cleaner etc.