Amtrak Florida Service

Noel Weaver wrote:We have discussed Auto Train operations on various forums here for quite some time. The Auto Train operation requires a
rather large overhead and it needs a really good market from point A to point B. The only really good market for such an
operation is the existing one between the Washington, DC area and Central Florida to serve Orlando, Tampa and by good
highways most of the southern part of Florida.
You need a seven day year round market that will support all of the facilities that such an operation requires. There is a huge overhead required. The service would have to operate seven days a week, 52 weeks a year with a paying load of
passengers on every trip to be successful and I do not think this is possible on any other possible market except the existing
one as it is operated.

Indeed, the Autotrain draws patrons from all of the metropolitan areas in the North East - hence the northern terminus just south of Washington D.C. It's obvious that you need a substantial demographic base to support any Autotrain type operation. Looking back, the original private Autotrain corporation tried the Chicago market, but the actual northern terminal was in Louisville, KY! Obviously, that the Chicago market didn't justify an Autotrain service, and the service expansion might have even brought the company down.

It just goes to show that any Autotrain needs a huge population base to draw from, and just as importantly, patrons that are willing to drive a few hours just to board the Autotrain.

Personally, I don't see any scope for the expansion of the Autotrain concept. It really doesn't make an sense on a transcontinental basis, or even on a smaller scale in secondary markets. Overall, good management and reasonable service have kept Amtrak's Autotrain viable, even though the concept doesn't have any scope for expansion to other markets.

To correct a previous post. Seminole Gulf's line in Oneco south of Tropicana is not out of service. It is still in service to the wye in Sarasota. This section is ex-SAL. Track south of the wye is out of service. North of the wye is ex-ACL and is still in service. All track in this division is excepted track. Track that went to Venice has had the last 12 miles ripped out for a (waste of taxpayer money) trail.

As I was coming from Winterhaven, a train from Lake Wales (next door) would be quite suitable.

Noel
Was the 4900 the former 2028? If so it served the Tampa to Venice route back in the SAL days pulling a section of the Silver Meteor outbound every morning and inbound every afternoon.

NellieBly wrote:I can certainly see merit in rail service Tampa - Sarasota - Ft. Myers - Naples. Unfortunately, you would first have to construct the railroad.

Indeed, the lack of existing rail infrastructure is the ultimate problem with passenger rail in Florida. The sad truth is that the best potential passenger route in all of the Florida is over the FEC between Jacksonville and Miami. Other than the FEC, much of the remaining freight rail infrastructure in Florida is poorly situated, with poor alignments and poor track structure.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Matthews, passenger service to Bonita and Naples (where the money is) lasted until A-Day.

Your comment regarding a "nippy little French train' is not all that far off-mark. Here is what ran Lakeland-Naples at "The End".

Florida did have a state-wide passenger train initiative enacted, but it subsequently was repealed. It appears at this time, Florida passenger rail is evolving towards a series of County level regional operations. Tri-Rail in SE Florida has been quite successful in garnering funds for infrastructure and I guess can be considered a "success" in spite of itself (it does not serve any Central Business District on its route - access to Miami simply is "putrid"). Another initiative is moving forth to serve "smack downtown" Orlando, the Rodent, and his Court Jesters.

There has also "been talk" of another rail initiative serving Fort Myers and Cape Coral.

Why all this emphasis on County lines? Well existing law says that any County desiring rail service must enact a permanent funding bae, such as a dedicated Use Tax ("Sales" and Motor Fuel being the two most common of such). Once that is in place, then State funding, along with Federal $$$ for infrastructure can move forth.

Lastly, poke around the Forum, and you will find much more discussion regarding Florida passenger rail, or lack therof.

It isn't hard to see that the funding mandate has made passenger rail very unpopular with Florida voters, most of whom are both unfamiliar with passenger rail and not very eager to use rail travel in any case.

I'm inclined to say that there might be a natural commuter market in Miami, although there is a horrific history of mismanagement in that city, but the prospects of the Orlando system are highly dubious and the moribund cross-Florida "high speed rail" proposal was justifiably voted down, despite propaganda to the contrary. If memory serves correctly, in some Florida counties, taxpayers would have shouldered the burden of subsidizing the rail system, despite the fact that there would be no stations in the counties in question. Basically, these taxpayers were going to pay for a train that didn't even stop in their county. The simple truth is that very few people want to increase an already high sales tax to support an unsustainable, poorly conceived passenger rail venture that is of no immediate benefit to the vast majority of Floridians.

Having said all of that, it seems like a shame that there isn't Amtrak service on the FEC along the one obvious and viable passenger rail corridor in all of Florida. I for one would support Jacksonville to Miami service, even if it required federal funding, without further burdening Floridians.

DODGEIT wrote:Noel
Was the 4900 the former 2028? If so it served the Tampa to Venice route back in the SAL days pulling a section of the Silver Meteor outbound every morning and inbound every afternoon.

Yes, it was originally SAL. It was on the Venice run for quite some time. I got pictures of it on that line many years ago,
buried in a box of slides that I never look at in a closet here somewhere.
Noel Weaver

not very eager to use rail travel in any case

That's my take too. I think most of the Naples crowd is from the Northeast or Upper Midwest. Most likely don't care to take the train other than NEC or occasionally Chicago hub corridors.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:Having said all of that, it seems like a shame that there isn't Amtrak service on the FEC along the one obvious and viable passenger rail corridor in all of Florida. I for one would support Jacksonville to Miami service, even if it required federal funding, without further burdening Floridians.

Isn't that currently in the works?

Chatter163 wrote:

goodnightjohnwayne wrote:Having said all of that, it seems like a shame that there isn't Amtrak service on the FEC along the one obvious and viable passenger rail corridor in all of Florida. I for one would support Jacksonville to Miami service, even if it required federal funding, without further burdening Floridians.

Isn't that currently in the works?

"Just talk" at this time, Mr. Chatter.

Here is discussion we have had regarding a possible Amtrak routing over the FEC:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 46&t=48644

With two daily's I have tried to make trips in the SE with Amtrak but can't seem to make it work. For example, Amtrak was offering promo fares in FLA last year so I convinced the wife we were going to ride the choo choo from JAX to Charleston, SC, where her father lives, instead of driving. Well, the northbound trip was completely reasonable in terms of depart/arrival times, but the only pickup from Charleston SB was at four in the morning! We're sick of the drive but that nixed it. There is another train that runs SB later in the day but it doesn't stop.

Charleston--and I realize this is a Florida thread but I think this needs to be pointed out--is an old port city where the silver spoon set in the South goes to drop a fat wad. It's kind of absurd that you can't to/from from Florida (where lots of fat wallets are living). (I realize that New Yorkers do not and will not stop there ... however, NYers are not the only ones with money to burn. I don't blame NYers for not visiting as I toured Charleston once with a mixed-race friend and the reception was VERY chilly. So there's that.)

I think the thruway buses are adequate and I'm not going to cry about the Waldo/Ocala spur running fallow for the time being. However, that third train seemed to make a real difference in terms of having viable regional service.

My understanding is that the Florida service has suffered from equipment shortages. If those were alleviated, could the service be improved?

Southbound train 97 stops at Charleston, SC at 5:08 AM. While this is not a delightful departure time, it can work and this
train stops at every city in Florida at a reasonable hour. Not every station between New York and Florida can had a daytime
arrival and departure. There is a daylight service in the Carolinas but unfortunately it does not operate south of Savannah.
Better service could operate in our part of the country but it is depended on state support and south of North Carolina no
state has shown the least bit of interest in intercity passenger trains so I guess we will not see any major increases in
service anytime in the immediate future.
Noel Weaver

Yes, you are correct--I was figuring I would have to have a cab waiting outside at 4AM to make the train so that stuck in my head.

If the Savannah-terminating service went to JAX then there would be opportunity for a bus connection inland, or I could drive there.

Forget about SC doing anything--they are broke as they come, though you don't hear much about it. GA is starting to take some pride in their state and might follow the successful NC/VA model (stranger things have happened).

There is a market here in Florida ... seems unfair that we got stiffed due to equip shortages and now there seems to be no move to restore what we had only a few years ago. HSR is kewl, but imo ... two hour trips within FL are not the problem. (Okay, I-4--ya got me there.) I can take Old Florida highways and have a good old time. It's going to ATL, SAV, Charleston, Miami, etc that is the real problem. Too close to justify the hassles of air travel, but too far to want to drive.

The only Amtrak service I have ever used in Florida was Amtrak package service JAX-BOS!!! I was quite pleased with it.

I know someone who got his wife to pick him up at Palatka and drive back to Gainesville so he could ride the train from Tampa. Now there's dedication!

Less than an hour's drive from Palatka to Gainesville; did it myself in conjunction with a train "joyride", Palatka to Kissimmee and return (same day) a while back.

Hurr, that's some mighty high speeds you'll be doin' to make Palatka-GNV in less than an hour. (I had a coworker once who was doing that commute daily, but she looked like a zombie.) And don't forget that the missus had to drive there and back. It does look like one could go just about anywhere from there. How's the parking at Palatka?

This wouldn't be a problem if there were better regional bus options because one could just take connecting shuttles. I did it in the Connecticut Valley routinely. (Full disclosure: I hate driving a car if I don't have to. I drove a city bus for 4 years but ... it's a bus (yum) ... and somebody was paying me.)

Back to that nixed Charleston trip, I did look into traveling to Savannah, stopping, and continuing on. You arrive at 9PM and have to leave at 6AM, so you pay up to be in the center city for nothing. Basically one would need a whole extra day to see the city and pay for two hotel nights. In short: pricey.

Sorry, Amtrak, but I do not consider that risking waking the household at 3:45 in the morning is good etiquette as a houseguest, so that 5:06AM depart is going to stay right there on that piece of paper.

I'm the sort of person who thinks nothing of hopping a NYC air haul from Florida and taking the cross-town transit to NYP to take the NEC line to Boston. In fact, I tend to discount the nuisance of getting out of airport and taking transit to the train. I'm also the nutjob who slept in the JAX Intl Airport baggage claim (ccccc-o-o-old) not once, but twice to catch an early AM bus so that no-one would have to drive me to the airport. But for me this is just beyond the pale and I won't be trying it.