• Amtrak Downeaster Discussion Thread

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by ExCon90
 
I checked Droege's book last night (Passenger Terminals and Trains, John A. Droege, McGraw Hill 1916, reprinted by Kalmbach 1969), and at the C&NW station in Chicago there were 4 telautograph transmitters, one each for the 3 divisional dispatchers plus one in Lake St. tower, and 19 receivers at various places in the station. The Fred Harvey restaurant in Kansas City Union Station used telautograph for the waitresses to transmit orders to the kitchen--in 1916. There is also a very informative article in Wikipedia under Telautograph which seems to be quite accurate. On another point, I just saw a video of the main concourse in Washington Union Station, and the arrival board showed track numbers for Amtrak trains; two MARC Penn Line trains were on the board without track numbers, but it may be that they just hadn't been posted yet.
  by swist
 
Only tangentially related to the DE since it traverses areas subject to fog.

Dense fog from WEM on up to BRK this morning. Train was on time, but it does it beg the question of what point the visibility affects the speed. I would think the engineer needs to see at least some of the signals. Or how about grade crossings?

My companion, who knows less about this stuff than I d,o claimed in this day and age there must be some fancy way of "navigating" in fog. This is Amtrak, not the airlines, so I doubt it, but maybe one of the many experts here can comment.
  by jonnhrr
 
Cab signaling.

However you still have the issue of visibility of obstructions on the track e.g. cars stalled on grade crossings.

Jon
  by MEC407
 
And there are no cab signals on Pan Am.

I've always wondered what they do in dense fog... or blizzard white-out conditions.
  by ExCon90
 
Even without cab signals every signal more favorable than Stop conveys an indication of what to expect at the next signal; thus, a train should never encounter a Stop signal without having previously passed an Approach signal directing it to proceed approaching next signal prepared to stop. If the indication of a signal cannot be read, an engineer is required to consider the signal as displaying its most restrictive indication, normally no better than Stop and Proceed, so if a train passed a signal without being able to read the indication it should be proceeding in any case at Restricted Speed and prepared to stop at the next signal. As pointed out above, however, that still leaves the problem of cars on grade crossings, but that happens all the time on clear days; since it's almost axiomatic that if a car on a crossing can be seen from a train moving at normal speed it's going to get hit, the presence of fog really wouldn't make things much worse.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
The Downeaster is CTC territory everywhere except the old ABS signaling on the NH Main between North Station and Wilmington, so the north-of-Wilmington track circuits do detect the train and give dispatch an accurate read on position. It's only the cab signal layer on top that's missing because of the B&M-era paper barriers giving Pan Am right of refusal on any installations. So in foggy conditions there's probably a lot more radio squawking with dispatch as extra precaution backstopping the limited visibility in the cab. Plus, MBTA territory has had a lot of signal head replacements for high-intensity LED's which really pierce through the fog a lot better than the old B&M searchlights. Don't know if PAR has done many changeouts between Plaistow and Rigby, but that's one of the rare infrastructure upgrades those cheapskates in Billerica don't mind shelling out for because it pays for itself on electricity and maint savings from never having to inspect for burnt-out bulbs. When they have changed heads the new preference at interlockings has been for gigantic tall gantries overhanging the tracks, which have much longer-distance visibility straight into the cabin window and zero chance of getting obscured by a tree branch like the old mast-mount signals off to the side.

Don't know how bad visibility has to get for them to outright restrict speed, but other than the obvious hazards at crossings it probably has to be as bad or worse than what we saw this week to compromise signal visibility enough to induce a restriction. On a generally well-manicured ROW that doesn't reach Class 4 MAS for too many long stretches there aren't many signal heads at risk for compromised visibility. And even the crossing signals themselves aren't as easy for a driver to miss as they used to be with the new-spec blindingly-bright 12-inch LED heads vs. the old 8-inch incandescent heads that are rapidly being replaced. The idiot who texts in pea soup fog is probably going to scrape guardrail well before hitting the limited-visibility crossing just past a curve in the road.
  by jonnhrr
 
As a Christmas gift I received tickets for a round trip on the Downeaster on Saturday January 9th from Brunswick to Boston, but today got an email that the return trip (#695) was canceled and to call Amtrak. Upon calling it sounds like they are busing part of the trip between Exeter and another station (didn't catch the name). Turns out both directions are busing. Isn't it unusual for PAR to be doing track work in January? Any other reason why they might be busing?

I ended up moving my trip to the following weekend which at least at this time is running through.

Jon
  by MEC407
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Don't know if PAR has done many changeouts between Plaistow and Rigby...
All done in 2001 courtesy of Maine taxpayers.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
jonnhrr wrote:As a Christmas gift I received tickets for a round trip on the Downeaster on Saturday January 9th from Brunswick to Boston, but today got an email that the return trip (#695) was canceled and to call Amtrak. Upon calling it sounds like they are busing part of the trip between Exeter and another station (didn't catch the name). Turns out both directions are busing. Isn't it unusual for PAR to be doing track work in January? Any other reason why they might be busing?

I ended up moving my trip to the following weekend which at least at this time is running through.

Jon
With this weather and eastern MA + southeastern NH still not having any ground freeze on Dec. 29...construction season has been thriving region-wide in overtime for over a month now. PAR definitely has idle track gangs since so little work was pre-scheduled for this month. Makes sense that they'd get a jump on some grab-and-go District 2 work originally scheduled for Spring; saves them money to get it over with now.
  by swist
 
Hmm all DE trains 30-50 minutes late today, the first day of any winter weather. The DE website indeed attributes them to weather.

Given that this wasn't much of a storm, I wonder why any delays at all. Although it is a mix of snow, sleet, rain, and freezing rain, which may have something to do with it.

What happens if we get a "real" storm? Or am I overlooking something here.
  by gokeefe
 
Sounds like a problem with switch heaters.
  by west point
 
F line please explain the PAR signal exemption ???
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
west point wrote:F line please explain the PAR signal exemption ???
Between 1973-76 on the southside and 1976 on the northside the T purchased all commuter rail lines, equipment, and physical plant from the bankrupt RR's. On the southside they inherited some cab signaled lines from Penn Central. Other RR's in ex-PC territory also had lots of pre-existing cab signal territory, so it was inevitable up-and-down the East Coast that the newly-minted public commuter rail agencies and Amtrak would be standardizing on PRR-style cab signals and filling in all/most gaps in cabs territory as they overchurned their lines for state-of-repair upgrades.

Unlike all of the southside railroads, B&M never had cab signals anywhere on its native system. Its first foray into cab signal territory didn't come until 1982 when it purchased a bunch of ex-Conrail territory in CT and had to run on the Springfield Line. And unlike Penn Central which allowed itself to be liquidated and join Conrail, B&M decided to remain independent and fight its way through bankruptcy the old-fashioned way with an (ultimately successful) reorganization plan. Since it was mid-bankruptcy and very touch-and-go survival wise at the time it got its 1976 cash infusion from the T asset sale, they feared the cost burden of having to acclimate its stretched-thin locomotive fleet to new cab signal installations on the northside. The T was obviously going to go with the flow on the southside where gradual expansion of cabs territory was inevitable, so for self-preservation purposes B&M put a perpetual right-of-first-refusal clause in the '76 sale agreement regarding any changes in the signaling tech on the northside. For the huge--and hugely below-cost--windfall of assets they got, the T was happy to oblige. And still is, given how many times over that '76 sale has paid for itself. Guilford/PAR inherited that right-of-first-refusal when it bought B&M in '83, and still...refuses. As is their full and legal right. It means the T and Amtrak can't install their preferred signal system and will have a tougher time debugging the cabless variant of ACSES when PTC is installed on the northside. But nobody can complain about the deal that was made 4 decades ago. It was very, very, very good for all sides and northside passenger AND freight owes its continued--and thriving--existence directly to that deal and, indeed, this very clause in that deal since it helped B&M claw its way back to profitability.

The exemption probably is not going to ever be lifted unless PAR gets bought out by somebody who runs on a mostly pre-existing cab signaled network. Norfolk Southern, if/when it swallows the other 50% of Pan Am Southern, may be willing to drop the exemption on the Conn River Line since nearly all of its loco fleet that serves New England from point of origin in Harrisburg is fully equipped. But of all the possible suitors for the PAR side of the system, only Providence & Worcester has the pre-existing cabbed territory and 100% equipped fleet that would make them willing to waive the exemption. Everybody else touching PAR contiguously, and any possible owners who zoom in from outside New England, wouldn't be setting up shop with pre-existing cab signal territory or have an equipped fleet. And therefore, everybody who isn't P&W would have a vested interest in keeping the cab signal ban in perpetuity. Since there'd be many suitors stepping forward, realistic odds are overwhelming that it'll be kept permanent for the long haul. At least as far as the MBTA northside and Downeaster are concerned (north-of-Springfield Vermonter obviously a different story probability-wise for lifting the exemption).
  by Dick H
 
It appears that there were problems on PAR for #684 and #686, as
they were 48 and 53 minutes late into Haverhill. However, #685
was only 3 minutes late into Portland. #687 is estimated to be 64
minutes late into Portland, but 59 minutes were lost between
Boston and Haverhill. The PAR track department was working at
the CPF273 switch in Plaistow well after dark today 12/29
  by TomNelligan
 
Unlike all of the southside railroads, B&M never had cab signals anywhere on its native system. Its first foray into cab signal territory didn't come until 1982 when it purchased a bunch of ex-Conrail territory in CT and had to run on the Springfield Line.
Actually, for a time the ancestral Boston & Maine did have an early form of cab signalling, on the Fitchburg Division between West Cambridge and East Deerfield. It was designated in the employee timetables as "Automatic Cab Indicator Territory" and lasted into the late 1960s. Those of us who were train-watching at the time will remember that the B&M's two pooled power freights (the Bow coal trains with NYC and P&LE runthough power and Boston-Chicago piggybackers PB-99 and PB-100 with EL and D&H power) would always have a B&M GP9 or GP18 leading east of Deerfield because of the cab signal requirement. Per the ETTs a couple exceptions were allowed involving local freights operating out of Boston and Portland-Worcester freights crossing the Fitchburg between Willows and Ayer.
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