Amtrak Diner and Food Service Discussion

Again, like anything else, don't like it, reach out to Amtrak. Let them know.

If they don't feedback they won't know how people feel.

TomNelligan wrote:The editor of Railway Age has written an excellent commentary on this latest service downgrade:

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/in ... ke-amtrak/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tom, thanks for supplying that link. There was a lot of interesting commentary in there, much of it foreboding for strong Amtrak regional and LD supporters like my wife and I. A good point made was that airline and Amtrak customers are different and expect or like different amenities. My wife and I like the dining experience on trains. To make it a "cheap plastic spoon cold food experience" might be cost effective from one point of view, but it's not quite that simple to customers like my wife and I. If it's going to feel like airline, we might as well take airline!

The editorial goes on to address other (non-food) issues, which though they are beyond the scope of this post, are also symptomatic of Amtrak-in-crisis-mode. Namely the reliability (or lack thereof) of scheduling. I thought it was very interesting the idea of deliberately slowing normal Amtrak train speeds so they would (1) fit into freight traffic better and (2) allow for more schedule padding, with the option of traveling 79 in certain circumstances to make up time. If it makes for more realistic arrival times, I think I would be all for it. Unfortunately, how much time would it add to a cross country trip, such as the California Zephyr?

TomNelligan wrote:The editor of Railway Age has written an excellent commentary on this latest service downgrade:

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/in ... ke-amtrak/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You'd think the sky is falling from that commentary. One, diner cars aren't going away, they're just being repurposed to sleeper car lounges (a severe under utilization), and you have the option of having your meal there. Two, there are significant amenities being added to the sleeper product, so it's not entirely a downgrade. Three, we'll just see how this new food approach works, it's a pilot project, and like all pilot projects it will be tweaked. It's not like Amtrak was fine dining in the first place. Hopefully the first thing that occurs is the option of a hot meal since the diners will still be on the train, after all airlines can at least do that on their limited galleys.

There's basically two types of fast food restaurants across America, the (1) hamburger joint serving hot meats on bread, and (2) the sandwich shops serving cold meats on bread. Looks like Amtrak has decided on type (2).
Which is sort of disappointing because looking at Main Streets across America there are many more type (1)s out there than type (2)s.

bretton88 wrote: You'd think the sky is falling from that commentary. One, diner cars aren't going away, they're just being repurposed to sleeper car lounges (a severe under utilization), and you have the option of having your meal there. Two, there are significant amenities being added to the sleeper product, so it's not entirely a downgrade. Three, we'll just see how this new food approach works, it's a pilot project, and like all pilot projects it will be tweaked. It's not like Amtrak was fine dining in the first place. Hopefully the first thing that occurs is the option of a hot meal since the diners will still be on the train, after all airlines can at least do that on their limited galleys.

Mr. Anderson, is that you?

hi55us wrote:

bretton88 wrote: You'd think the sky is falling from that commentary. One, diner cars aren't going away, they're just being repurposed to sleeper car lounges (a severe under utilization), and you have the option of having your meal there. Two, there are significant amenities being added to the sleeper product, so it's not entirely a downgrade. Three, we'll just see how this new food approach works, it's a pilot project, and like all pilot projects it will be tweaked. It's not like Amtrak was fine dining in the first place. Hopefully the first thing that occurs is the option of a hot meal since the diners will still be on the train, after all airlines can at least do that on their limited galleys.

Mr. Anderson, is that you?

Part of what makes long distance train travel so unique is the full dining car. I've ridden most of the major routes, coast to coast several times, and I can tell you that this is a stupid idea, plain and simple. The microwave food thing on the City of New Orleans is lame and very dissapointing. The vast majority of the dining car crews I've encountered have provided great service and meals. It will be a significant loss to the whole experience.

I have no problem with pre-prepared meals, similar to ones in domestic first class flights, but the menu in the Amtrak press release indicates that everything is cold. Yuck!

SouthernRailway wrote:I have no problem with pre-prepared meals, similar to ones in domestic first class flights, but the menu in the Amtrak press release indicates that everything is cold. Yuck!

Exactly, the standard cafe car fare is better than these options! That's what makes me lean toward the more cynical view that this is part of a GOP mandate to eliminate the Amtrak long distance rail network via death by a thousand cuts.

I have some thoughts on this; I'll leave the doom-saying to others. Amtrak has a good deal of information at its disposal which we lack:

• The number of coach passengers in the dining car vs the number of sleeper passengers
• The cost of preparing meals onboard
• The total number of meals served on an average trip relative to passenger load
• The demographic breakdown of its passengers

Amtrak has to be intrigued by the results on the Silver Star, where the elimination of the dining car didn't kill the train (quite the opposite, in fact). Anecdotally, a friend traveled with his wife and three school-aged children from the Northeast to Orlando, in coach, and far from starving (as is often presumed here) found the cafe car met their needs (augmented by some snacks bought beforehand).

The dining car is a profit black hole. Always has been, even under private operation. A loss leader makes sense, maybe, when competing with other railroads. When you're competing with other transport modes, it becomes more complicated. You can't provide a truly superlative dining experience without raising the price to unacceptably high levels. The September 2017 dining car menu for the Capitol Limited priced most entrees between $16-25. Amtrak's not making a profit there, and it still represents a markup over what you'd pay at a restaurant for comparable food. The Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited incorporate the additional challenge of only serving two meals in each direction, because of the timing. The dining car is deadweight for long stretches. Additionally, the "lounge" space on the Lake Shore Limited is woefully inadequate.

Going over to pre-packaged meals eliminates a number of complexities:

• The time for a person to eat is dramatically compressed. It's a long stretch between sitting down, ordering, eating, and paying. That's all gone now.
• The social awkwardness of community seating is eliminated. Those who want to interact with others in the lounge may do so, just as they do in existing lounge cars.
• People who want to eat but are boarding/disembarking during meal times have a much better chance of actually getting fed.
• The total number of meals served will presumably go up, because on-board preparation and available seating are no longer limiting factors.

There is probably an overall loss of food quality here; the question is whether or not that matters. If the relative loss of food quality does not negatively impact passenger loads, then Amtrak's making a smart bet. The increased availability of onboard lounge space for sleeper passengers is an immediate win, as are the free non-alcoholic beverages and the complimentary drink (shades of the revamp of Chicago's Metropolitan Lounge). I can speak only for myself, but unless the food is truly unpalatable, this doesn't affect my decision to travel by train. If this causes sleeper prices to level out because Amtrak has additional capacity, then that's even better.

As long as I get alcohol and coffee I'll be ok with it. No joke.

Other than keeping food properly refrigerated (presumably), what is the advantage vs. just bringing your own food? I've never ridden Amtrak, but I presume I would want at least one good & hot meal a day.

For those wondering how we got to this point, here is the relevant legislation: https://transportation.house.gov/upload ... packet.pdf
The authorization explicitly calls for elimination of Food and Beverage losses by 2019, and as a major tenant also calls for Amtrak to be "run like a business." This is how we get to this announcement today. I am not entirely sure how much of a choice Amtrak had. I do believe there are things that can be improved about the new system quickly, since the diners will still be on the train as lounges, hot meals should be quickly added back to the menu. If airplanes can do it, Amtrak has little excuse to not at least offer a heated option.

bretton88 wrote:For those wondering how we got to this point, here is the relevant legislation: https://transportation.house.gov/upload ... packet.pdf
The authorization explicitly calls for elimination of Food and Beverage losses by 2019, and as a major tenant also calls for Amtrak to be "run like a business." This is how we get to this announcement today. I am not entirely sure how much of a choice Amtrak had. I do believe there are things that can be improved about the new system quickly, since the diners will still be on the train as lounges, hot meals should be quickly added back to the menu. If airplanes can do it, Amtrak has little excuse to not at least offer a heated option.

The heated options will most likely only occur during dinner, which these two trains generally don’t serve. If they do, the schedules could be changed so they don’t. The longer distance east coast trains, i.e. Silver Meteor and Crescent, will continue to serve dinner, and I assume continue to have hot meals choices on the menu. Whether they will continue to have hot meals choices for breakfast and lunch is still in doubt, imho.
All the west coast trains serve dinner, so it will be interesting to see if they only serve hot meals for dinner or not in the future?

electricron wrote:

bretton88 wrote:For those wondering how we got to this point, here is the relevant legislation: https://transportation.house.gov/upload ... packet.pdf
The authorization explicitly calls for elimination of Food and Beverage losses by 2019, and as a major tenant also calls for Amtrak to be "run like a business." This is how we get to this announcement today. I am not entirely sure how much of a choice Amtrak had. I do believe there are things that can be improved about the new system quickly, since the diners will still be on the train as lounges, hot meals should be quickly added back to the menu. If airplanes can do it, Amtrak has little excuse to not at least offer a heated option.

The heated options will most likely only occur during dinner, which these two trains generally don’t serve. If they do, the schedules could be changed so they don’t. The longer distance east coast trains, i.e. Silver Meteor and Crescent, will continue to serve dinner, and I assume continue to have hot meals choices on the menu. Whether they will continue to have hot meals choices for breakfast and lunch is still in doubt, imho.
All the west coast trains serve dinner, so it will be interesting to see if they only serve hot meals for dinner or not in the future?

The CL definitely serves dinner leaving DC (I forget if it does leaving CHI). I think what you're getting at is neither train serves lunch and dinner (the Boston leg of the LSL doesn't count, it's always been a boxed lunch), so passengers won't have to repeat cold options.

bretton88 wrote:

electricron wrote:

bretton88 wrote:For those wondering how we got to this point, here is the relevant legislation: https://transportation.house.gov/upload ... packet.pdf
The authorization explicitly calls for elimination of Food and Beverage losses by 2019, and as a major tenant also calls for Amtrak to be "run like a business." This is how we get to this announcement today. I am not entirely sure how much of a choice Amtrak had. I do believe there are things that can be improved about the new system quickly, since the diners will still be on the train as lounges, hot meals should be quickly added back to the menu. If airplanes can do it, Amtrak has little excuse to not at least offer a heated option.

The heated options will most likely only occur during dinner, which these two trains generally don’t serve. If they do, the schedules could be changed so they don’t. The longer distance east coast trains, i.e. Silver Meteor and Crescent, will continue to serve dinner, and I assume continue to have hot meals choices on the menu. Whether they will continue to have hot meals choices for breakfast and lunch is still in doubt, imho.
All the west coast trains serve dinner, so it will be interesting to see if they only serve hot meals for dinner or not in the future?

The CL definitely serves dinner leaving DC (I forget if it does leaving CHI). I think what you're getting at is neither train serves lunch and dinner (the Boston leg of the LSL doesn't count, it's always been a boxed lunch), so passengers won't have to repeat cold options.

The Capitol Limited serves dinner out of Chicago, and breakfast the next day. There's a limited lunch if it's running late, but it's not part of the regular schedule.