Amtrak considers extending Wolverine line from Chicago to Toronto via (VIA?) Detroit

Also: who is going to Detroit from Toronto and points between, versus those going all the way to Chicago? I don’t like it either, but maybe the best course of action is in fact to plan to use the old International route via Port Huron/Sarnia.

electricron wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:09 am When proponents start arguing straight shots bypassing Windsor's VIA train station, implying Detroit is left serving Windsor; they only reinforce what I wrote earlier, that Windsor already serves Detroit. VIA runs at least three round trips a day between Windsor and Toronto. They could up it to four round trips without any help at all from Amtrak, but they haven't yet.
How many trains are enough?

Did not say there couldn’t be a stop in Windsor….just that it’s straight track to Chatham on CP once out of the tunnel without an awkward time consuming move over to VIA. (there’d be room near the old Windsor CP/New York Central station site for a new stop)

VIA currently has 4 trains a day each way to/fr Toronto.

There's definitely a lot to be said for the idea that it's a non-starter to get on a train and then have to get off at the next stop just to go through customs.

What was the past practice on the Niagara Rainbow? Did Canadian border control and customs take place enroute or did the train stop at Windsor (CP)?

gokeefe wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:17 am What was the past practice on the Niagara Rainbow? Did Canadian border control and customs take place enroute or did the train stop at Windsor (CP)?

When I rode the Niagara Rainbow from Detroit to Fort Erie, Ontario in November 1977. Canada Customs came aboard in Windsor and asked me a couple of questions as I was getting off in Fort Erie, but I don’t believe Americans “Just passing through” were even inspected/questioned......probably just a head-count. We had to remain in the last car separate from the through passengers and I remember that the attendant from the snack car would come back every so often to take our food orders.

gokeefe wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:17 am There's definitely a lot to be said for the idea that it's a non-starter to get on a train and then have to get off at the next stop just to go through customs.

What was the past practice on the Niagara Rainbow? Did Canadian border control and customs take place enroute or did the train stop at Windsor (CP)?

9-11, coupled with the current American governmental xenophobia, means that train has left the depot.

We’d need a full treaty customs union with Canada. Until then, expect to dismount and clear customs.

Huh? Any xenophobia going on is south of the border. North of the border there are customs agreements in place for a couple of the daylight LD's, aren't there? And an extension of the Vermonter back into the Montrealer is in the works, albeit slowly it seems. Don't the Adirondack and Maple Leaf have arrangements?

Certainly, a full customs union is not required. That's hyperbole'.

Preclearance facility work is being done for the Vermonter/Montrealer. Currently the Maple Leaf stops and dismounts passengers for entry into the United States at Niagara Falls. The Adirondack is not pre-cleared and stops at Rouses Point (southbound) and Lacolle (northbound). The Cascades is pre-cleared in Vancouver and runs through without stopping for customs or immigration southbound. And I believe Vancouver is the only stop in Canada northbound.

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:23 pm

gokeefe wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:17 am There's definitely a lot to be said for the idea that it's a non-starter to get on a train and then have to get off at the next stop just to go through customs.

What was the past practice on the Niagara Rainbow? Did Canadian border control and customs take place enroute or did the train stop at Windsor (CP)?

9-11, coupled with the current American governmental xenophobia, means that train has left the depot.

We’d need a full treaty customs union with Canada. Until then, expect to dismount and clear customs.

Not quite sure where you’re getting the idea that we’d have to dismount to get through customs...didn’t have to when we took the Cascades service a few years ago.

Taking this the next step ... Because of the length of travel inside Canada and market implications for the service it seems unlikely that the train would skip all stops aside from Toronto. I agree that others have made a good case that Windsor likely provides nearly ideal levels of service to the Detroit area. It would be very difficult and costly to run via MCS - CP.

Should be interesting to see if this proposal emerges as a complete (interline service) restoration of the previous arrangement or if it is exclusively state supported.

WesternNation wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:58 pmNot sure where you’re getting the idea that we’d have to dismount to get through customs...didn’t have to when we took the Cascades service a few years ago.

It's been reported somewhere on here that at Niagara Falls everybody has to get out and shlep their luggage through Customs and then get back on again. The Cascades have pre- (and post-?) clearance at Vancouver, only possible because there are no intermediate stops in Canada. If a train originated in Detroit it might be possible to institute pre-clearance there (since there would be no stops before Windsor), but it took a lot of grunt work to put in pre-clearance on the Cascades. It's been a long time in the planning stage for the Adirondack as well, and I don't think it's in effect yet--although I don't think people have to get off in Rouses Point. For a train originating in Chicago you'd have a Niagara Falls situation at Detroit-Windsor. I've also read that regional Customs officials have a lot of leeway in how they carry out various requirements, so that things get done one way here, and another way there.

As mentioned elsewhere, suspect this partially came up because the then Ontario Government was implementing a plan for high speed trains - initially Toronto - London, followed by the London - Windsor segment. The plan was to get a 2 hour journey time Windsor to Toronto, which opens up a lot of possibilities.

Extending slightly to the Michigan Central Station makes a lot of sense in that scenario as you can securely deal with customs at MCS, and with the one road crossing practically next door the sharing of US border officials would be easy.

Ford is moving back into Detroit in part because the younger generation - the millennials - are more likely to want to live in a city vs the suburbs, and offering convenient train service to Chicago and Toronto helps to attract talent.

Of course the change in government in Ontario last year complicates things - they initially put the high speed rail on hiatus but with plunging poll numbers and a significant shake-up to try and reverse the damage a couple of weeks ago who knows what might happen.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 1:56 pm Huh? Any xenophobia going on is south of the border. North of the border there are customs agreements in place for a couple of the daylight LD's, aren't there? And an extension of the Vermonter back into the Montrealer is in the works, albeit slowly it seems. Don't the Adirondack and Maple Leaf have arrangements?

My possibly mistaken understanding is that other than the Toronto (Maple Leaf) train the goal is to have all cross border trains clear US customs at the origin station in Canada (the so called pre-clearance that the US likes for cross-border flights as well). This works for the trains out of Montreal and Vancouver, but not really Toronto given the need for additional stops between Toronto and the border (that and I don't think you could put in place an isolated platform at Toronto Union).

Given that assumption, starting any new cross border service where customs/immigration is handled at the physical border is unlikely to happen unless there is a significant change in attitude.

Thus any Toronto - Detroit service will need to have the issue thought out, and it would be relatively easy to fence off and monitor the line between the tunnel and MCS to allow for checks to take place at MCS.

mdvle wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:37 pmGiven that assumption, starting any new cross border service where customs/immigration is handled at the physical border is unlikely to happen unless there is a significant change in attitude.

The assumption is incorrect. There is no specific policy goal regarding pre-clearance. On some routes it's a great idea. On others it presents an impediment to transportation. If MCS really is in play (seems like a long shot but I have to wonder) Canadian customs and immigration (CBSA) would be the agency that would benefit the most from pre-clearance (for travelers enroute to Canada from MCS).

west point wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:24 pm A question is the present delays getting across the river at Detroit. How is the planning or lack coming along for a second bridge.

Construction on the Gordie Howe International Bridge started late last year with completion expected 2024.