ALP-45-DP Usage/Service Patterns

beanbag wrote:

25Hz wrote:I have been told by an unverified source that the reason we are not seeing newark div service with the 45's is related to the bridges that carry the NEC over the M&E/PATH having weight limit issues. Not that it's too much, but that it's so close to the limit that repeated multiple daily usage could cause irreversible damage to the support structures requiring a replacement of the entire support. This would cause massive disruptions for both hoboken and NYP based service and PATH...

The guy had an encyclopedic knowledge of PA and NJ railroad related topics, so i'm leaning towards thinking it's true.

That to me is bogus considering the 45s we designed from the outset for New York service. And then you have NJT as well with those hulking multilevels. If the 45s were in fact going to cause a problem NJT wouldve put the kibosh on the project a long time ago. Maybe the reason the 45s havent migrated over to the Newark side is that we are missing SIXTY PERCENT of the fleet thanks to Sandy? Rather than spread them thin I think NJT is smart to keep the ones that can perform revenue service on one side. NJT already ran them into Penn for a weekend. To pin the blame on the bridge is crap. Every bridge on the NEC in that region should have been replaced years ago.

They went across portal that one weekend, but portal is just worn out, it doesn't have a specific weight rating issue, so idunno.

The guy i talked to really knew what he was talking about, like literally rain man of the rails, details upon details off the top of his head. Dates of equipment entry & retirement, equipment road numbers, speed limits, interlocking names, weight of at least 10 car and locomotive types and all kinds of info on past present and pending projects. Had a small handheld scanner on a belt clip to top it all off. Friendly old guy too!

25Hz wrote:

beanbag wrote:

25Hz wrote:I have been told by an unverified source that the reason we are not seeing newark div service with the 45's is related to the bridges that carry the NEC over the M&E/PATH having weight limit issues. Not that it's too much, but that it's so close to the limit that repeated multiple daily usage could cause irreversible damage to the support structures requiring a replacement of the entire support. This would cause massive disruptions for both hoboken and NYP based service and PATH...

The guy had an encyclopedic knowledge of PA and NJ railroad related topics, so i'm leaning towards thinking it's true.

That to me is bogus considering the 45s we designed from the outset for New York service. And then you have NJT as well with those hulking multilevels. If the 45s were in fact going to cause a problem NJT wouldve put the kibosh on the project a long time ago. Maybe the reason the 45s havent migrated over to the Newark side is that we are missing SIXTY PERCENT of the fleet thanks to Sandy? Rather than spread them thin I think NJT is smart to keep the ones that can perform revenue service on one side. NJT already ran them into Penn for a weekend. To pin the blame on the bridge is crap. Every bridge on the NEC in that region should have been replaced years ago.

They went across portal that one weekend, but portal is just worn out, it doesn't have a specific weight rating issue, so idunno.

The guy i talked to really knew what he was talking about, like literally rain man of the rails, details upon details off the top of his head. Dates of equipment entry & retirement, equipment road numbers, speed limits, interlocking names, weight of at least 10 car and locomotive types and all kinds of info on past present and pending projects. Had a small handheld scanner on a belt clip to top it all off. Friendly old guy too!

Sorry to say, but I am still not buying it. I would rather hear the news from an Amtrak or NJT employee. ThirdRail or JT, do you guys have any information on this subject!

Well, not saying it's fact, saying i'd like to know if its true.

25Hz wrote: The guy i talked to really knew what he was talking about, like literally rain man of the rails, details upon details off the top of his head. Dates of equipment entry & retirement, equipment road numbers, speed limits, interlocking names, weight of at least 10 car and locomotive types and all kinds of info on past present and pending projects. Had a small handheld scanner on a belt clip to top it all off. Friendly old guy too!

Congratulations! You've just described a railbuff. Sign here for your medal, please.

beanbag wrote:

25Hz wrote:I have been told by an unverified source that the reason we are not seeing newark div service with the 45's is related to the bridges that carry the NEC over the M&E/PATH having weight limit issues. Not that it's too much, but that it's so close to the limit that repeated multiple daily usage could cause irreversible damage to the support structures requiring a replacement of the entire support. This would cause massive disruptions for both hoboken and NYP based service and PATH...

The guy had an encyclopedic knowledge of PA and NJ railroad related topics, so i'm leaning towards thinking it's true.

That to me is bogus considering the 45s we designed from the outset for New York service. And then you have NJT as well with those hulking multilevels. If the 45s were in fact going to cause a problem NJT wouldve put the kibosh on the project a long time ago. Maybe the reason the 45s havent migrated over to the Newark side is that we are missing SIXTY PERCENT of the fleet thanks to Sandy? Rather than spread them thin I think NJT is smart to keep the ones that can perform revenue service on one side. NJT already ran them into Penn for a weekend. To pin the blame on the bridge is crap. Every bridge on the NEC in that region should have been replaced years ago.

Yes the 45s were designed for New York service off the Main/Bergen County lines using a loop onto the NEC which would cut-in after the saw-tooth bridge and portal. So 25Hz's post holds some truth.

srock1028 wrote:

beanbag wrote:

25Hz wrote:I have been told by an unverified source that the reason we are not seeing newark div service with the 45's is related to the bridges that carry the NEC over the M&E/PATH having weight limit issues. Not that it's too much, but that it's so close to the limit that repeated multiple daily usage could cause irreversible damage to the support structures requiring a replacement of the entire support. This would cause massive disruptions for both hoboken and NYP based service and PATH...

The guy had an encyclopedic knowledge of PA and NJ railroad related topics, so i'm leaning towards thinking it's true.

That to me is bogus considering the 45s we designed from the outset for New York service. And then you have NJT as well with those hulking multilevels. If the 45s were in fact going to cause a problem NJT wouldve put the kibosh on the project a long time ago. Maybe the reason the 45s havent migrated over to the Newark side is that we are missing SIXTY PERCENT of the fleet thanks to Sandy? Rather than spread them thin I think NJT is smart to keep the ones that can perform revenue service on one side. NJT already ran them into Penn for a weekend. To pin the blame on the bridge is crap. Every bridge on the NEC in that region should have been replaced years ago.

Yes the 45s were designed for New York service off the Main/Bergen County lines using a loop onto the NEC which would cut-in after the saw-tooth bridge and portal. So 25Hz's post holds some truth.

Hmmm.. Interesting, thanks for the tip srock. Sorry for dismantling you there 25Hz. How would the engines get to the loop if they were on other lines if i may ask?

While I can't say that it has anything to do with why ALP-45s are not used on Amtrak, I do know that at least certain individuals at Amtrak had expressed concern about ALP-45s crossing the sawtooth bridge. This fact was actually mentioned in this forum at the time it came up...

beanbag wrote:

srock1028 wrote:

beanbag wrote:

25Hz wrote:I have been told by an unverified source that the reason we are not seeing newark div service with the 45's is related to the bridges that carry the NEC over the M&E/PATH having weight limit issues. Not that it's too much, but that it's so close to the limit that repeated multiple daily usage could cause irreversible damage to the support structures requiring a replacement of the entire support. This would cause massive disruptions for both hoboken and NYP based service and PATH...

The guy had an encyclopedic knowledge of PA and NJ railroad related topics, so i'm leaning towards thinking it's true.

That to me is bogus considering the 45s we designed from the outset for New York service. And then you have NJT as well with those hulking multilevels. If the 45s were in fact going to cause a problem NJT wouldve put the kibosh on the project a long time ago. Maybe the reason the 45s havent migrated over to the Newark side is that we are missing SIXTY PERCENT of the fleet thanks to Sandy? Rather than spread them thin I think NJT is smart to keep the ones that can perform revenue service on one side. NJT already ran them into Penn for a weekend. To pin the blame on the bridge is crap. Every bridge on the NEC in that region should have been replaced years ago.

Yes the 45s were designed for New York service off the Main/Bergen County lines using a loop onto the NEC which would cut-in after the saw-tooth bridge and portal. So 25Hz's post holds some truth.

Hmmm.. Interesting, thanks for the tip srock. Sorry for dismantling you there 25Hz. How would the engines get to the loop if they were on other lines if i may ask?

I'm pretty sure the whole theory about weight restrictions on the sawtooth bridge has been debunked for now. They are cleared to operate over the bridge without restrictions. If NJT started running them in earnest and it became a problem, they could restrict them over the bridge like they did the E-60s.

As for the loop, take a good look at west end track profile of Secaucus station. That stub end track in the center is where the loop track was supposed to go. All they have to do is move the catenary poles, decide if the track will go up or down (I thought is was down and Portal would go up) and there you have it. The transmission lines were already moved out of the way to make room for it.

It shouldn't take much if they go down.

I see one tower foundation and the tension anchor for that side of the tower that'd have to be moved, and the piers that hold up the causeway would need to have a longer bridge space to make room for the track at a practical angle.

ThirdRail7 wrote: As for the loop, take a good look at west end track profile of Secaucus station. That stub end track in the center is where the loop track was supposed to go. All they have to do is move the catenary poles, decide if the track will go up or down (I thought is was down and Portal would go up) and there you have it. The transmission lines were already moved out of the way to make room for it.

It shouldn't take much if they go down.

I always wondered what the purpose of that stub track was. ThirdRail7, given that you seem to know stuff about the Secaucus Station and the Loop, here is a related question. If one looks at the viaduct that holds the third track west of Secaucus Station there are two locations that are different than the rest of it. The viaduct is mostly made of concrete slabs, but these two locations are steel and look like bridges over nothing. One of them is much longer than the other. Is that where the loop was going to go under the viaduct? What was supposed to go under the other location? For those who have not noticed these, you can take a look at Google Maps -- the two bridges over nothing are clearly visible if one zooms in.

25Hz wrote:I see one tower foundation and the tension anchor for that side of the tower that'd have to be moved, and the piers that hold up the causeway would need to have a longer bridge space to make room for the track at a practical angle.

You're forgetting something. They are planning to raise Portal when they add the Loop. There will plenty of room.

EuroStar wrote:

ThirdRail7 wrote: As for the loop, take a good look at west end track profile of Secaucus station. That stub end track in the center is where the loop track was supposed to go. All they have to do is move the catenary poles, decide if the track will go up or down (I thought is was down and Portal would go up) and there you have it. The transmission lines were already moved out of the way to make room for it.

It shouldn't take much if they go down.

I always wondered what the purpose of that stub track was. ThirdRail7, given that you seem to know stuff about the Secaucus Station and the Loop, here is a related question. If one looks at the viaduct that holds the third track west of Secaucus Station there are two locations that are different than the rest of it. The viaduct is mostly made of concrete slabs, but these two locations are steel and look like bridges over nothing. One of them is much longer than the other. Is that where the loop was going to go under the viaduct? What was supposed to go under the other location? For those who have not noticed these, you can take a look at Google Maps -- the two bridges over nothing are clearly visible if one zooms in.

Two things. They left room for future expansion and the loop track. When ARC was under consideration, a 4 track main was planned from what is now Bergen Interlocking to what is now Swift. Upon completion, they were supposed to add a 5th platform to Secaucus Station. Therefore, you'd have two tracks looping to the Bergen Connection. One from the stub area in the middle and one that was fed from a junction between the new 4 track and the existing 3 track.


Everyone had a grandiose plan. There were a ton of variables that came with Secaucus Junction. The reason why they needed all of this is because the ALP-45s weren't in the picture. There was talk of bringing the Raritan to SEC along with the the Bergen trains and storing them in a yard under SEC. The Raritans would arrive in SEC, change ends and reverse along this new loop track. Then, there was talk of running a NYP-SEC shuttle. There was talk of a Plan "G" (NYG-to SEC) shuttle. Then, there was supposed to be a NYP-SEC-NWK-EWR shuttle.

While all of this was being contemplated and built, a bunch of us were kind of wondering similar things aloud, such as "All of this is nice and sounds good, but why are we building all of this at the base of a 90 year old bridge?" and "didn't a train fall off this bridge not too long ago (not technically correct) and "shouldn't the bridge be replaced first?" and "how will you raise Portal enough from the track level of Sec to avoid another swing span? It doesn't seem like there is enough room between where you plan to build the station and the river to get to 65 ft above MHW without adding a helper"

You know, things of the nature. But hey, what did we know?

Thirdrail7, you are absolutely correct - what DO we know? Most times, we just clog up these plans with facts and reality, and the ones who make the plans don't like that! With the exception of Don31 of course!

There are several theories as to why the 45s are almost entirely on the Hoboken side....im sure there is a grain of truth to each of them. However ridiculous they might or might not seem. Here is a general overview......

- the sawtooth bridge is a problem, apparently, and some particular people think its a bigger problem than others. Yes, it can handle the weight, but on a daily basis, dozens of times a day.....ehhhh maybe not.
- fuel. Again, for like the 100th time....the only fueling facilities on the Newark side are Raritan, AC and MMC. You can debate til the cows come home electric and diesel mode and fuel consumption, but they need to get to one of these places, or Hoboken or somewhere else on the Hoboken side for fuel at some point. They can't be run in electric mode in Hoboken - so going to change modes twice from Bay Head to Hoboken? Running them in straight diesel mode to Hoboken from Raritan? HAHAH that would be a kick in the face to RVL passengers. No slots for them to run into NYP from Raritan...what train are you going to cancel to replace with an RVL train
- scheduling conflicts with them going into NY. NJT knows darn well as soon as the first one goes into NY during the week, that commuters (not passengers, but regular commuters who kind of know whats going on) will want them for their line, like RVL, or BH, or West of Dover, whereever. NJT does not want a repeat of MIdtown Directs success. They simply can't have them be as successful as they want, because without ARC, there is real room in the North River tunnels anymore
- NJT keeps new stuff on the Hoboken side for a long time while they test/deal with the stuff. It was at least a two years IIRC before a PL42 even made it to the Newark division in regular service more than just a rare occurance or an oops. they did the same thing with the Comet 5s. The '45s have been running for a few years now, but they are far from being "broken in"
- Egos - im not even going to get into that...

When ARC was cancelled, the ALP45s were doomed as well. It doesn't matter how good they may or may not perform in whichever mode. They aren't going to be as successful as they should have been. They are another cost of cancelling the project that we will have to pay for for years. They are going to be used basically as diesel locos because there are 65 straight electric locos already (and 32 retired '44s). The oldest locos are the Geeps and other diesels. Since they have the locos already (probably could have bought 2 or 3 diesel locos for the cost of one '45...but whatever) they should focus on rebuilding the remaining Comet 3 and 4 fleet and scrapping the MLMU idea.....the MUs are tired and deserve retirement. MUs work, but with SOOOO many push pull coaches around (cough cough Bay Head and now Garwood....) a focus should go back on to loco hauled consists, and rebuilding existing equipment and not buying everything new when stuff gets tired and old....like most other railroads do!

The 45s also have a problem that the PLs never had thanks to Sandy.. Sandy knocked alot of them out. Once they fix up the damaged ones and put sufficient miles on those (remember.. 12 of them never turned a wheel in revenue service) then they might migrate around. I think for the time being the trick will be finding out what theyre good at And using them to that strength. For one, with a 3-5 car Comet salad, they are quick as all get out from a stop. They should rebuild the Comet IIIs/IVs as you said JT and maybe pair some up with the 45s for the Gladstone, allowing NJT to take out more MUs, people in Gladstone wouldnt complain either as the 45s can be electric. Why cant the 45s run electric in Hoboken?

To solve the fuel problem you could theoretically (NOT proposing this as a serious idea as there are capacity issues that I already understand) have a train run from Bay Head to New York then back to Bay Head then turn it for Hoboken, fuel it up, and then send it back wherever. Not perfect obviously, but it will at least cause minimum interruption to the train schedule.

What they could do is NYP-bay head/long branch, then revenue up to Newark then off onto the RVL revenue and then fueling. Then run revenue back to Newark and back to NJCL then back to NYP and start all over again.

You'd use them in E mode at Newark while its sitting idle for RVL and between NYP and long branch also to make the most of the fuel they get.

Dunno what other changes that'd cause to happen with other rotations, but in theory it'd work. After peak hour take the set to MMC and let I sit in E mode overnight or till its next outing.

Jtgshu wrote:They can't be run in electric mode in Hoboken - so going to change modes twice from Bay Head to Hoboken? Running them in straight diesel mode to Hoboken from Raritan?

beanbag wrote:Why cant the 45s run electric in Hoboken?

Out of curiosity, I second the question... Why can't the 45s operate in e-mode in Hoboken? Prior to Sandy, I thought Montclair-Boonton trains originating in Dover using the 45s were go e-mode from MSU to Hoboken. Is this current restriction related to the substation in Hoboken following repairs to Sandy damage (i.e capacity constraints) or is it more a procedural thing that has just not been updated since the substation went back on-lime (i.e bullitens or ETTs not updated to remove the required mode change at Newark Broad)?