Adirondack Scenic Railroad (ADIX) Discussion - 2012

Otto Vondrak wrote:

Otto Vondrak wrote:Explain this: The state agencies that oversee the railroad corridor have said time and time again that the railroad won't be ripped up. So... What's going to change? Who exactly are the trail people lobbying? The New York State Department of Ripping up Railroads? The Public Trail Mongering Authority? The State Agency on Aging and Impoverished Recreational Ideas?

Gonna be a tough row to hoe.

-otto-

I'd still like an answer here. No politician has come out on record against the railroad that I've seen. Albany is staying out of it. NYSDOT expressed their position pretty firmly. So who are the trail folks advocating to and who are they trying to win over? Right now regulatory agencies have firmly stated their position is not going to change, so all this talk of removing the railroad is a bunch of hot air.

-otto-

The LAST time Albany gave any support to the ASRR plan was under Gov. Pataki in 2006 when a $5 million grant was awarded to the Saranac to Tupper Lake upgrade. When Spitzer took office in 2007, he took back the funds and very little new has happened. The current administration in Albany is environment friendly and backs the for-ever-wild and rail to trail groups. I think that this corridor does have an up hill battle ahead. There is little transportation money available!!!

The forever wild issue is taken care of by the UMP that deal with the areas that the line passes through.

I received the following via the "Rochester_Railfan" YahooGroup this morning (18 Nov 2012) and I am reposting for your consideration:

====================

The Adirondack Scenic Railroad operates tourist train operations along the former Adirondack Division of the New York Central Railroad. After the bankruptcy of the Penn-Central Railroad the State of New York acquired this rail corridor and it was unused until the 1980 Winter Olympics in Lake Placid, went dormant, then was resurrected at the Southern Utica-Remsen end of the line in 1992 by the Adirondack Rail Preservation Society, now known as the Adirondack Scenic Railroad. Over the past 20 years the ARPS/ASRR have been working diligently as a non-profit organization to establish tourist rail operations on this NYS owned line. Currently the ASRR operates in the Southern Section from Utica to Thendara/Big Moose and at the northern terminus between Saranac Lake and Lake Placid. An organization known as Next Stop Tupper Lake has rebuilt a replica of their former NYC station and want the tracks brought up to specifications so the Northern tourist line can be extended South from Saranac Lake. Also, recently the ASRR has entered into an agreement (Memorandum of Understanding) with Iowa Pacific Holdings to eventually establish their recently launched Luxury Pullman Service originating in New York City via Amtrak and then continuing on the Adirondack division from Utica to Lake Placid. This would necessitate improvements to the entire line.

Currently the ASRR operates on a lease during the Spring thru Fall months and Snowmobile organizations have lease rights during the Winter. The land use laws and regulations in the Adirondack Park of New York are highly regulated and in the Adirondacks the rail corridor operates in a State Unit Management Plan (SUMP) established in 1995 which is overseen by the NYS Departments of Transportation, Environmental Conservation and the Adirondack Park Agency. Recently a group called the "Adirondack Rail Trail Associates" has called for a review and rewrite of the SUMP and is aggressively lobbying Albany for the removal of the tracks and the ceasing of operations of the Adirondack Scenic Railway. PLEASE HELP US FIGHT THE REMOVAL OF THE RAILS! I am asking your group to help us save this historic section of the former NYC. Please sign our online petition and spread the word to thru the railfan community.

Sincerely, Alan Roberts

Petition Link: http://signon.org/sign/adirondack-railr ... by=5288532

But... Didn't the state just declare that the rails weren't getting ripped up?

Otto Vondrak wrote:But... Didn't the state just declare that the rails weren't getting ripped up?

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story...

The trail advocates talk the good talk, even if their facts and figures are questionable. Pretty much every snowmobiler who rides the corridor would love to see the tracks gone - then they'd be able to ride as soon as there was an inch or two of snow on the ground.

There probably are hikers and mountain bikers who would ride a 60+ mile wilderness trail, and the advocates point out a similar length trail in PA that gets thousands of users. They invariably fail to point out that said trail is paralleled by a state highway providing periodic access.

What's hard to prove is their true motives - although there are opinions out there as to what they may be. Of course, all they need to say is "no, no, we don't want that, we want a trail," and because there is no smoking gun (yet), people will believe them.

Like many things, the trail "advocates" hope that if they say something enough times, it will be true.

Which is why it's necessary to push back at their foolishness.

Thanksgiving morning found 3600hp worth of ALCO/MLW power in front of Big Moose for the first time over rebuilt trackage. This progect it about 85% done. Poor picture with cell phone, but you get the idea. Rich the owner of Big Moose Station was happy to say the least, I'm sure he's aware his business will take a major step forward next year with approx 7 to 10 trains to BM per week.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg20 ... ild003.jpg

More press - read the comments after the article -

http://www.uticaod.com/features/x192689 ... oad?zc_p=1

westshore94706 wrote:More press - read the comments after the article -

http://www.uticaod.com/features/x192689 ... oad?zc_p=1

Westshore, your link takes you to page 2 of the article. (Here is the link to page 1)
http://www.uticaod.com/features/x192689 ... oad?zc_p=0

From the above cited piece:

The group believes that reselling the rail ties would pay for a large part of the trail’s construction costs, which it estimates around $6 million for the 34-mile stretch between Saranac Lake and Tupper Lake.

That was a genuine, unsolicited, spontaneous, ROFLMAO.

If the ARTA believes that there is $6M tied up (pun intended) in railroad ties between Utica and Lake Placid, I've got a swing bridge I'd like to sell them. (Assembly required.)

I'm pretty sure that the "Tom Goodwin" cited in the piece is actually our good buddy
Tony. After reading about that laughable idea to sell the used ties, I really can't see how
they have any credibility at all. They are just a all-out flaming dumpster-fire, respectively.

Hey Tony, I have a better idea. How about you take a few used railroad ties and cut them up
and burn them in your chimney. They will burn good and hot for a long period of time. It will
keep you nice and warm and toasty at night!

Warmest Regards,
Charlie

TheARTA is getting desperate. Despite the thousands of "supporters" they say they have (including the snowmobilers who would like the tracks up but have given no thought to what might happen if they are actually lifted), TheARTA's efforts are bogging down. People are supporting rail operations and are demonstrating that expansion of service will actually be beneficial to their communities.

It's coming to light that bicyclists are, on the whole, a cheap bunch. They may come and ride, but they don't spend much money in the process.

TheARTA has completely ignored the fact that if the tracks are rehabbed, there will be regular service between Utica and Lake Placid - not just the occasional Pullman train. Trains that will bring visitors into the region - visitors that will spend money.

We can't write TheARTA off just yet - they've got plenty of misinformation left to disseminate (like the claim that running trains on the line means no more snowmobiles - a "fact" that hasn't proven out between Remsen and Carter), and will surely be most active in putting that information out.

Old RR ties sell for landscaping around $15-$20 each retail - for creosote ties. A lot of the Adirondack ties are treated with something else, from what I recall from my visit they're sort of greenish colored.

If you assume EVERY tie could be resold and at a rough guess of 2500 ties per mile for 75 miles, I get 3.75 million dollars. Now that's retail - cut it at least in half for the wholesale price. I think if you got enough good ties to get half a million wholesale you should also go out and buy a powerball ticket.

When I worked with a contractor cleaning up old RR ties for Conrail, we graded the ties from super nice, relay quality, to junk; the worse they are, the less their value. We got a lot of relay-usable ties - but they also came off the main line, not a branch line that's been in and out of service off and on the last 40 years.

It is illegal in NY State to sell used railroad ties for landscaping purposes:

http://www.dec.ny.gov/chemical/42394.html

If the used ties aren't of sufficient quality to be resold to another railroad, they must be disposed of through environmentally correct methods, which cost $4-5 per tie.

EH

I'm sorry, but I (and yes "Tom" in the Utica OD should have been "Tony") can't resist from responding to a few recent comments generated by the media coverage of the presentation in Utica regarding the proposed Iowa-Pacific Pullman service.

In his presentation, Al Heywood strongly implied that Iowa-Pacific - not the taxpayers - would provide much of the capital required to restore the track between Big Moose and Saranac Lake. Once that happened, then ASR could provide other service not restricted to the 1%. While Iowa-Pacific has invested some money to restore the North Creek line, I seriously doubt they can come up with the $25 million that Gene Falvo of ANCA said would be the cost of restoration. And based on the cost of the Big Moose and earlier restorations, I think that the $25 million figure is realistic for restoration to Class II standards. Class II would be sufficient for a Pullman train that will take 12 hours to go from NYC to Lake Placid. And $25 million is significantly higher than any previous estimate of the cost that rail promoters would earlier accept even though DOT says $35 million has already been spent on the railroad.

I did note that Gene and Al said that the Pullman service would only run May through October. Thus this service would not interfere with snowmobiling. I realize that snowmobiles can use the Corridor from Remsen to Thendara when there is enough snow; but if proposals for year-round freight service or snow trains to Tupper Lake ever materialize, then snowmobiling on the Corridor ceases because it becomes an operating railroad. Remember also, that Tupper Lake received no benefit from snowmobilers last winter because the snow never was deep enough to cover the rails. Absent the rails in place, there would have been two plus months of snowmobile business in Tupper Lake.

As for the questions regarding salvage value, the figures in the Rails to Trails Conservancy (RTC) study were based on numerous similar conversions. This study said that the salvage value of the whole line from Lake Placid back to Thendara would fund the conversion to a stone dust surfaced bike trail from Lake Placid to Tupper Lake. Snowmobilers would gain an immediate benefit with the rails removed south of Tupper Lake, and that section would admittedly have to wait for additional funding to make it truly bicycle-friendly. The value of the rails themselves is many millions, and the RTC study takes into account, based on other salvage operations, that many ties will have to be disposed of at some cost. Of course, some do have resale value. The net result is a surplus, which the UMP for the Corridor says should be used to fund any conversion to full recreational use.

im so sick of this guy