Adirondack Scenic Railroad (ADIX) Discussion - 2012

Tony Goodwin wrote:Yes, control of ATVs will be a problem, but there are many "pinch points" where a gate can prevent ATV use but permit bicycle use and then be opened for snowmobiles. Who would do this? The NYSSA and its members also know that ATV use can cause damage that impacts snowmobiling and will have every incentive to prevent this use.

Thank you for replying to my point. Can you tell us of *any* other rail-trail where this has been successful? And have you looked northeast out of Tupper, where the ATVs are already destroying the railbed even while the rails remain? Also look along the New York & Ottawa line where the ATVs are turning the railbed into a mudbed.

There was virtually no issue with the rail banked section that had been converted to a rail trail. Just as it is supposed to work.

These are issues with the rail banked section (see http://www.centredaily.com/2012/05/22/3 ... claim.html), but I agree with you that most of the objection is to the landfill. And the law is clear: the railroad has priority on a railbanked trail. But Tony, Tony, Tony, I have NEVER EVER heard of an actively used railroad being destroyed just to put in a trail.

Tony Goodwin wrote:"And if longer distance rides on this line supposedly so popular, why are there only five trips from Utica to Thendara scheduled for the whole month of July this year?"

I have yet to see an answer to this question. Without a good answer, there is no reason that the taxpayers should pay for additional restoration for a service that no one wants. Granted that long distance, rural trails will never get the same level of use that more urban trails get, but each user will be a visitor who spend some time in the area. Furthermore, the cost of maintaining the corridor as a trail will be far, far less than maintaining it as a railroad. As other have previously noted, it's much better to have a rail corridor preserved as a trail for the day (probably far in the future) when rail service would again be needed on this line.

While I doubt there is any answer that would ever satisfy ARTA on this question, I find it absolutely consistent with their modus operandi that Tony Goodwin would cherry pick only the July trips to illustrate his point. I guess he forgot to check August. Let's see, 14 trips from August 2 through Sept. 2. And then...look at that! I count 26 trips from Sept. 13 through October 28. None of these includes the many charters that are booked by various tour groups throughout the season but not shown on the website.

So of course, the railroad is failing because there are only five trips shown on its website for July. Right.

Russ's point about the ATV's is well taken. My suspicion is that among the many reasons the State has for not removing the rails any time soon, is the enforcement nightmare that would result from ATVs swarming the trail. My guess is the DEC is probably of the same opinion.

Tony,
The fact remains that what you are promiting is sixty miles of bike trail beginning in an established tourism center, passing through the middle of nowhere, connecting to one up and coming tourist town, then another twenty six miles of bike trail through the middle of nowhere to connect to an already established tourist center. It just isn't going to attract the number of bikers and hikers to make such a project viable.

You have the Lake Clear to Malone section doing nothing for the summer tourism, use that as your test case. Improve the trail surface, add rest stops and parking areas, and advertise it. If it works then I will believe you and respect your organization. If not then the railroad will not have been destroyed for nothing.
It's an obvious way to prove or disprove your theories, but your group has done nothing but sidestep it every chance you get.
With or without powerlines a rail trail will see the same number of riders. There are numerous rail trails with shared use as a powerline corridor. The Erie Canal Trail in Little Falls for example, shares the right of way with a National Grid high tension line, and it's a very popular segment of the trail. Probably the most popular segment in Central New York.

Honestly I no longer work for the Adirondack Scenic Railroad, so I can't tell you about the here and now, but when I did work for them, there were at least a half dozen private charter trips per month in the summer running from Utica to Thendara.

I will say that in terms of "longer train trips", Utica to Lake Placid is the big one. Lake Placid is a destination which people have heard of even out here in Central and Western New York; the intermediate points (Thendara?!) aren't.

The line is half-open. It should be expanded until both ends are linked. The Adirondack RR is moving far faster on this than, for instance, the Bluebell Railway in the UK, which has taken *50 years* to extend service a few miles.

Speaking of extensions, does anyone know the progress on the upgrades needed for service extension to Big Moose? "It's all downhill from there"....

I see the new web site has been launched... Good improvement in many areas, some things could probably stand a little tweaking. Overall, a good effort.

http://www.adirondackrr.com/

-otto-

N_DL640A wrote:You have the Lake Clear to Malone section doing nothing for the summer tourism, use that as your test case. Improve the trail surface, add rest stops and parking areas, and advertise it. If it works then I will believe you and respect your organization. If not then the railroad will not have been destroyed for nothing.

That's a very good point. The ARTA trail will, if nothing else, go through Lake Clear Junction. If they're serious about establishing bike trails, this would be an excellent place to start. It *already* has no tracks to remove, and the surface is quite tolerable: http://russnelson.com/nyc-south-from-malone.html

It would be a great way to disprove my thesis that the ARTA is working to create "Scotty's Trail".

RussNelson wrote:

N_DL640A wrote:You have the Lake Clear to Malone section doing nothing for the summer tourism, use that as your test case. Improve the trail surface, add rest stops and parking areas, and advertise it. If it works then I will believe you and respect your organization. If not then the railroad will not have been destroyed for nothing.

That's a very good point. The ARTA trail will, if nothing else, go through Lake Clear Junction. If they're serious about establishing bike trails, this would be an excellent place to start. It *already* has no tracks to remove, and the surface is quite tolerable: http://russnelson.com/nyc-south-from-malone.html

It would be a great way to disprove my thesis that the ARTA is working to create "Scotty's Trail".

Brilliant thoughts, and I love N_DL640A's idea as well.

Tony, I am in no way against your thoughts on walking/biking trails, and not even totally against an ATV trail
if it's done the right way and not abused by reckless individuals. Many of the riders give others a bad name with
their behavior. Why not give thought to the Clear Lake/Malone section as mentioned?

Admittedly, I have been vocal and harsh........however, I am just as passionate about saving the ADIX as you and
others may be about your dreams of a trail.

Charlie

For the last time. NEW YORK STATE DOES NOT FINANCIALLY SUPPORT THE ADIRONDACK SCENIC RAILROAD!!! NYS simply pays to improve the tracks that they own. The railroad is contracted by the NYS to opperate them. NONE of their (our) money suports the operations of the railroad. It is self-sufficient. Not to say there have not been tough times and a few poor financial decisions (hindsight), but that is the case with any volunteer run, non-for-profit organization. And even through these, we the tax payers have never bailed the railroad out. Any talk of the state supporting a failed railroad are just flat out LIES. Please stop spreading them. And the last time I checked New York State has not invested any large sums of money into it's tracks in a long time. Over ten years to be exact (2001 expansion to Lake Placid). Stop playing the taxpayer sympathy card. It is a low-down, dirty tactic to try to gain support for your cause. Yes we have high taxes, but it's not because of those two ribbons of steel running through the woods.

What happens Tony, when you suffer a unexpected auto accident (and I'm not wissing this on you so don't get mad), lose the use of your legs and you still want to enjoy the beauty of the Adirondacks? Is someone going to push you up your trail in your wheelchair? Sure would be nice if there was some sort of transprtation that would allow you and others in similar situations to see how spectacualar the scenery of the Adirondack Park can be. Like a train maybe. Oh wait. You sent the train away so only able-bodied people can see the remote scenery. Too bad. Hope you can afford a helicopter. Maybe Scott Thompson will give you a ride up his road in his propane truck. He will probably charge you though. And for the record I am an avid snowmobiler. I spend more money when railfanning. Unless you count gas. But let's face it, the place you by the gas from doesn't make any money on it. You seem sincere Tony and are probably getting bashed a little hard on this forum, but I would be carefull of the allies you have chosen. They have hidden agendas. I think you have gotten caught up in all the BS they have been giving you.

Rail-with-trail will not work. This railroad is built through some rugged terrain. There are places where this would indeed be possible (and can be explored), but in the vast majority it would not fit (rock cuts, long fills, many bridges). That may also alter it's status on the Nation Register of Historic Places, I'm not sure.

Let's do a count of how many people have ridden the Adirondack Scenic since '92 (I think it's got six zeros) and see how it compairs to
un-improved trail users.

Read my tag line.

Okay, enough.

We are here to discuss the operations of the Adirondack Scenic Railway. Let's move on.

-otto-
New York State Railfan Moderator

If I may beat this dead horse one more time. I have some advice.

The best place to take on these so called trail "advocates" is to do exactly what they do with such frequency that it's showing
their true agenda. Submit a well written letter to the editorial pages that they take turns writing every week and call them on their misinformation, spun statistics, and astounding economic claims. A letter to your state representative, the DOT, and congressman is very effective.

These "experts" in economic development, recreation, and even railroad operations are spinning facts and disseminating misleading information knowing full and well that the masses don't know or care enough to ferrett out the truth. They know that if you keep repeating something often enough it will be viewed as true fact. Hopefully, the policy makers see thru the true selfish agenda and make the right decisions.

The Adirondack Scenic railroad was started over twenty years ago as a demonstration project to determine if a long term investment was good public policy. Those involved both in government and in economic development circles knew and understood that the full economic benefit and sustainability of the project would not be realized until the project was completed and in operation. Most agree that the railroad should have been brought to completion long ago but the DOT has dragged it's feet which has given this "advocate" gang ammo to fire shots at the whole project.

Read their letters to the editor in the Utica, Rome, Old Forge, Saranac, and even Albany paper. The claims of expertice in business, railroading, and economic analysis are even comical. Write your letters boys and call em on it! The true agenda is not far below the thin veneer of expert analysis and starting to show. Debating on here probally empowers their cause thinking they are taken seriously.

hojack wrote:If I may beat this dead horse one more time. I have some advice... The best place to take on these so called trail "advocates" is to do exactly what they do with such frequency that it's showing their true agenda. Submit a well written letter to the editorial pages that they take turns writing every week and call them on their misinformation, spun statistics, and astounding economic claims. A letter to your state representative, the DOT, and congressman is very effective.

Hmm, that takes time, and might actually be effective. We better just stick to debating with each other on the Internets.

-otto-

Tony Goodwin,
Dont listen to McCully. The Adirondack Scenic Railroad does NOT get any money from the government to run their trains. The state pays to keep the ROW intact which is not only for train movements but for the snowmobile trail in the winter. If theres a major washout somewhere, both parties are screwed arent they?

Oh, and lets be realistic here. I work on a freight railroad full time. How many close calls we have had in the last month with ATV's is startling. ATV riders WILL break the law. They WILL go around any of your pinch points and they will ruin your trail. If theyre ballsy enough to ride down the middle of an active railroad, they will sure be willing enough to find an alternative way onto the trail, even if it means making one themselves. There is no way that you can stop them from using a trail.

I have a foot in both camps, so it pains me to read the way this thread has developed.

I love trains, my family loves trains, and we ride tourist RRs all the time (4 round trips, totalling 15 tickets, on the ADIX since 2000 or so).

We also love bike trails, especially rail trails, and use them all the time as well (dozens of trips up the Mohawk on the former West Shore, and we've done most of the C&O canal/Western Maryland trail from DC to Pittsburgh. Cass is next, this fall).

Both camps can and do despise ATVs. I have almost hit one on a train (an Amtrak train to Niagara Falls), I have actually had one hit me in my car (a glancing blow along a county road when an underage driver appeared out of the bush and bounced off my door). And I really relish the rail trails that are closed to motorized vehicles. Having one of those things scream past you really destroys the peace and calm that I go to the woods to enjoy.

Let's keep it that way. I have no objection to snowmobiles on the ROW when it's not in use, but ATVs are simply not compatible with either RR operations or bicyclists.

Ignoring Jim McCulley's statements that operations are subsidized, we still have the glaring fact that no expansion of service can take place without a significant expenditure of taxpayer dollars. Taxpayer dollars are legitimately expended when the benefit to the public is justified by that expenditure. Unfortunately, any reasonable outside observer would have to conclude that $16 million ( or more likely closer to the #43 million on the DOT web site) would not be justified with just the 7,000 additional riders projected by the most recent study of "completion" of the entire project.