• AC/Diesel Dual-Mode Locomotives in the news

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by Wdobner
 
benltrain wrote:
Nasadowsk wrote: I believe the ICE does quick uncouples at stations, though not moving. Ther'es really nothing magic about this, the technology is simple, it's just regulatory crap preventing it in the US.
Bingo, again, this is the reason why this just won't work. FRA would never allow this. We need a more conventional approach, because of the FRA and SEPTA both being very stubborn (for lack of a better word).
It actually is allowed, in an application a good deal more complex and with trains far less manuverable than what Phil and Matt are describing. The system is called HelperLink and is used by BNSF and Montana Rail Link, and was used by Conrail shortly before they went defunct. I don't know whether Union Pacific, Kansas City Southern, Norfolk Souther, or CSX also use these devices but clearly it is possible and the FRA allows it, at least with freight operations.

Clearly a passenger rail application would be a bit different from what the BNSF engineer, Mr. Krug, describes in the link above. For one thing as has been illustrated by the discussion of the IC3 the need for a radio controlled air pipe is unneccesary, and since it'd presumably be an automatic coupler so is the pin puller. Whether the rear section of the train would be allowed to proceed at 20mph in CTC territory would be up for grabs, since SEPTA doesn't quite have the pull that BNSF does. With something like Communications Based Train Control, where block sizes are arbitrary the two trains could be in their own blocks, and presumably if the front section goes into emergency the rear section would recieve a stop indication and also go into emergency.

As an example on SEPTA's network say a combined DMU/EMU train is leaving Pennbrook for Lansdale. Somewhere just south of Lansdale the (say) front EMU section and rear DMU section separates. The EMU train continues on at 30 to 40mph while the DMU section slows to 20mph until they're in the next block back. The EMU section, which is either running to Doylestown or terminating at Lansdale would take the diverging route just south of Main St and follow the line to Doylestown. That switch would reset for the line to Quakerstown and the DMU section would continue through and stop at the former mainline platforms. It's possible that the EMU section would wait around for the DMU section to catch up at Lansdale, but really that's quite unneccesary. The train would undoubtedly have a functioning PA system, and would certainly have conductors who could walk through the train and inform passengers, especially those they might remember as holding tickets to Quakertown, Sellersville or others that they need to walk forward or backward to reach their destination. Holding lead section at the station for passengers transfering from the trailing section would pretty much negate any benefit an on-the-fly separation would bring. The same scenario could be worked out at Norristown, Fox Chase, or Wawa (assuming the R3 West Chester comes back and an extension to Kennett Square or Octorara is built).

Of course on the fly coupling would still have to be worked out. I have no clue what the FRA's rules are regarding that operation, but I'd be inclined to think it's fairly well prohibited. It's quite possible that one section would have to be scheduled to arrive a few minutes ahead of the other and the coupling would have to be done with one section stationary there for it to work.

  by benltrain
 
Wdobner wrote:
benltrain wrote:
Nasadowsk wrote: I believe the ICE does quick uncouples at stations, though not moving. Ther'es really nothing magic about this, the technology is simple, it's just regulatory crap preventing it in the US.
Bingo, again, this is the reason why this just won't work. FRA would never allow this. We need a more conventional approach, because of the FRA and SEPTA both being very stubborn (for lack of a better word).
It actually is allowed, in an application a good deal more complex and with trains far less manuverable than what Phil and Matt are describing. The system is called HelperLink and is used by BNSF and Montana Rail Link, and was used by Conrail shortly before they went defunct. I don't know whether Union Pacific, Kansas City Southern, Norfolk Souther, or CSX also use these devices but clearly it is possible and the FRA allows it, at least with freight operations.

Clearly a passenger rail application would be a bit different from what the BNSF engineer, Mr. Krug, describes in the link above. For one thing as has been illustrated by the discussion of the IC3 the need for a radio controlled air pipe is unneccesary, and since it'd presumably be an automatic coupler so is the pin puller. Whether the rear section of the train would be allowed to proceed at 20mph in CTC territory would be up for grabs, since SEPTA doesn't quite have the pull that BNSF does. With something like Communications Based Train Control, where block sizes are arbitrary the two trains could be in their own blocks, and presumably if the front section goes into emergency the rear section would recieve a stop indication and also go into emergency.

As an example on SEPTA's network say a combined DMU/EMU train is leaving Pennbrook for Lansdale. Somewhere just south of Lansdale the (say) front EMU section and rear DMU section separates. The EMU train continues on at 30 to 40mph while the DMU section slows to 20mph until they're in the next block back. The EMU section, which is either running to Doylestown or terminating at Lansdale would take the diverging route just south of Main St and follow the line to Doylestown. That switch would reset for the line to Quakerstown and the DMU section would continue through and stop at the former mainline platforms. It's possible that the EMU section would wait around for the DMU section to catch up at Lansdale, but really that's quite unneccesary. The train would undoubtedly have a functioning PA system, and would certainly have conductors who could walk through the train and inform passengers, especially those they might remember as holding tickets to Quakertown, Sellersville or others that they need to walk forward or backward to reach their destination. Holding lead section at the station for passengers transfering from the trailing section would pretty much negate any benefit an on-the-fly separation would bring. The same scenario could be worked out at Norristown, Fox Chase, or Wawa (assuming the R3 West Chester comes back and an extension to Kennett Square or Octorara is built).

Of course on the fly coupling would still have to be worked out. I have no clue what the FRA's rules are regarding that operation, but I'd be inclined to think it's fairly well prohibited. It's quite possible that one section would have to be scheduled to arrive a few minutes ahead of the other and the coupling would have to be done with one section stationary there for it to work.
This all sounds great, but this still doesn't meant the FRA or SEPTA would even consider this as being conservative enough.

  by jb9152
 
Here's a dual mode OCS/diesel trainset from Bombardier - the AGC, currently operated in France.

"AGC Regional Train - France

The AGC (Autorail Grande Capacité) represents the new generation of regional trains designed to meet current needs regarding the development of urban and intercity rail transportation. Technologically innovative and powerful, it puts the client at the centre of the design process. The AGC is available in numerous versions. The seating capacity of the trains can range from 160 to 220 seats, depending on the number of cars. Modular interior design exists in the High Class and Intercity versions. The trains can run on either diesel fuel, electricity or a combination of the two.

The AGC will travel at 160 km per hour. Thanks to its articulated architecture, it sports wide carbodies and inter-circulation gangways, as well as a continuous low floor. These features provide excellent access for travellers, make it easier to move about in the trains and deliver greater comfort, visibility and security. The AGC not only meets the expectations of mass transit operators and users, but also respects environmental requirements and operating economics."

* found on the Bombardier web site.

I don't know (haven't been able to find much technical documentation in English), but I'm reasonably sure that it will not come close to meeting FRA requirements for crashworthiness, but hey - it demonstrates that OCS/diesel dual mode equipment exists and runs today.

The technical issues that remain to be solved mainly involve power versus weight (can't be *too* light, or the materials won't meet the crashworthiness standard).

IMHO, with advances in materials science, reducing the weight of these things while maintaining adequate HP is an attainable goal, and almost certainly possible/probable within the next 25 years.

  by Nasadowsk
 
25 years? It was possible 10 years ago:

* Carbon fiber body.
* Aluminum trucks.
* Hollow axles.
* AlMg alloy seats.

etc, etc, etc.

Pricy in a small order, now at least.

Car body weight's the small part of equipment. It's everything ELSE that got REAL heavy over the years. The <b>propulsion system</b> alone on the Silverliner II/III cars weighs more than the raw carbody (33,000 lbs vs 21,000lbs for the car body). The interiors alone are 11,000 lbs.

Remember, the Pioneer III weighed 89,000 lbs, the unpowered coach was 52,000 lbs. The LIRR's M-1s were actually heavier (despite being third rail units - the carbody was more conventional on them), and the M-7s are so far past the point of rational, it's not funny.

Of course, the tax payer gets soaked in the form of higher operating costs and the riders get soaked in the fom of higher tickets and slower trains, and a worse ride.

And, the French train is 1.5kv. All it's got over a regular DMU is a transfer switch and a pan. The 1.5kv directly feeds the DC link. Big deal. Even simpler than the P-32 or DM-30.

For Septa, you'd add a transfomer (1.5MVa or so, at 11,000 lbs), converter (figure 1,000 or so), reactance (another 2,000 - 4,000, easy) to that. So, you're looking at a 15,000 lb (minimum) premium per motor car. Of course, I'm ignoring the protective equipment (another few hundred), blowers, etc.

For a locomotive, scale those numbers by about 2X, unless you want a decent capacity, in which case 2.5X. So, yes, you're looking at 30,000 to 50,000 lbs (or more) extra weight on locomotives that already are too heavy for passenger service. Most recent 4 axle units are at the limits for 4 axle locomotives, thus now you're going to 6 axles, adding two motors, thus uprating everything again...

Or, you could just get a DMU and EMU designed to MU together, and enjoy the flexibility...

  by Irish Chieftain
 
Or, you could just get a DMU and EMU designed to MU together
Makes me wonder why the RDCs back in the 80s weren't rebuilt to do this with the Silverliners...
thus now you're going to 6 axles, adding two motors
Not if you use A1A-A1A trucks.

  by Nasadowsk
 
<i>Makes me wonder why the RDCs back in the 80s weren't rebuilt to do this with the Silverliners...</i>

Likely because nobody thought of it, or nobody thought of a way to make it work, i.e. nobody wanted to put the effort in...

Today, there's the IC3, and I'm sure a few other units, out there showing the practicality of DMU/EMU operation. It's the easy and proven way to go 'dual mode' because you're only handling a minor controls issue, and each unit can be optimized for operation, unlike a true DM, which is almost always a compromise.

<i> Not if you use A1A-A1A trucks.</i>

True, but the 1st question you'll get is "why use A1A when you can use C?". Ok, there's maybe a theoretical (and historical) stability advantage, but you lose the extra tractive effort. Of course, you shave weight (always a good thing). More specifically: 6 axle units for passenger service got a bad rep in the 70's (though some excellent high speed units used them anyway)...

Not that it's not a possibility, but most wouldn't look in that direction, when saving bulk weight is going to get you more in the end.

  by jb9152
 
Nasadowsk wrote:25 years? It was possible 10 years ago:

* Carbon fiber body.
* Aluminum trucks.
* Hollow axles.
* AlMg alloy seats.

etc, etc, etc.
Understood, and all good points. MY point is that it will be possible to do what you're talking about (i.e. with transformers, etc.) with a manageable and reasonable HP to weight ratio within the next 25 years, in my very humble opinion.

I just don't want people to get the impression that there are NO OCS/diesel dual mode railcars. There certainly are. The challenge, as I said, will be to reduce the weight of the heaviest components while maintaining crashworthiness and not losing precious horsepower. A big challenge, I admit, but one that everyone that I speak with in my line of work say is not insurmountable.

  by whovian
 
I like some of the ideas I've seen suggested here. My only question is who would maintain some of this glorious equipment? I certainly don't think SEPTA could, remember the RDC's. The diesels SEPTA has now couldn't pull three bombardier coaches past 37mph during railworks.

  by Matthew Mitchell
 
whovian wrote:The diesels SEPTA has now couldn't pull three bombardier coaches past 37mph during railworks.
Can't really blame SEPTA for that. Those RL1s were dogs from the get-go.

  by jb9152
 
Matthew Mitchell wrote:
whovian wrote:The diesels SEPTA has now couldn't pull three bombardier coaches past 37mph during railworks.
Can't really blame SEPTA for that. Those RL1s were dogs from the get-go.
Sheesh. I remember that. I worked at Fern Rock during RailWorks. We used to dread the sight of those dogs chugging up the grade into FRTC.

  by dreese_us
 
How many push/pulls run thru the CC tunnel during the peak periods? Would it be possable to use them with the AEM-7's to pull RDC's thru the tunnel?

  by dreese_us
 
How many push/pulls run thru the CC tunnel during the peak periods? Would it be possible to use them with the AEM-7's to pull RDC's thru the tunnel?

  by JeffK
 
jb9152 wrote:I don't know (haven't been able to find much technical documentation in English) ...
As-tu besoin d'une traduction?

roughly: Yo, ya want somebody dat can read the Frenchy stuff?

  by jb9152
 
JeffK wrote:
jb9152 wrote:I don't know (haven't been able to find much technical documentation in English) ...
As-tu besoin d'une traduction?

roughly: Yo, ya want somebody dat can read the Frenchy stuff?
Yes! If you can find any info on the SNCF's AGC dual mode trainset, that would be great. The Bombardier web site is OK, but it has very sparse information.

  by JeffK
 
Can you point me in the direction of the French tech sites? I'm not in a position time-wise to do a full translation but I can at least cover the gist of things. (Plus my knowledge of technical French is more related to cars than trains, but a lot of terms are similar)

As far as the AGC, I hit a load (and lode) of sites in English just querying on sncf AND agc:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=sn ... gle+Search
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