1982 RDC wreck details?

Ok ok ok... Let's get back to the RDC wreck...if you want to persue the other part of the discussion start new topics.
-ed

Pacobell73 wrote:Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am just basing this on other agencies who have made it work. I simply equate the NYCTA running the LIRR and Metro-North. Now, true, all of these agencies are under the jurisdiction of the MTA, but their roles are clearly defined. MTA has not tried to transitize their commuter railroads, same with NJT. Just comparing apples to apples.

This is silly - you're not comparing apples to apples. What you advocated is not an MTA model, but a wholly separate organization. That's a bad idea, plain and simple.

Pacobell73 wrote:Actually, if remember correctly, the biggest gripe the GOP in Harrisburg has is that transportation funds seem to always go to Pittsburgh and Philly, virutally ignoring the rest of the state. If the commuter lines were excised from SEPTA, then SEPTA could ask for funds for their subways, trolleys and busses (Pittsburgh is a non-issue, due to the lack of commuter trains). The commuter trains, on the other hand, would be asking for funds for services that run outside of the 5-county region, benefitting a greater amount of political leaders and their constituents. Then, Harrisburg GOP will not complain. Think about it. SEPTA as it is currently set up, is a strangehold on the growth for the very region it serves.

You're dreaming. It would be a fight every year for state subsidy money.

jb9152 wrote:This is silly - you're not comparing apples to apples. What you advocated is not an MTA model, but a wholly separate organization. That's a bad idea, plain and simple.

Because the current setup is doing so well? SEPTA runs the railroad division well? Are you for real? If have a wholly separate organization is a bad idea, then suggest a better one than the current set up. The brass at SEPTA have always given priority in this following order:
1) busses
2) subway
3) trolleys, which they would love to eliminitate in favour of bustitution
4) trackless trolley, another area they nearly destroyed
5) railroad - a distant, distant 5th

It does not matter how smart and rational SEPTA's railroad division personnel are. I know they know their stuff, and many are holdovers from Conrail (at least they were in the 1980s). They are reporting, however, to brass whose priority it is to run busses and subways. I have spoken to more than one railroad division conductor and motorman, and have discussed this endlessly. Many want to leave SEPTA and work where they can do their job. They know that their division under SEPTA auspices is like squeezing a square box into a round hole.

Case in point - there is a painful gap in R5 Doylestown service during the AM rush hour:

- 525am
- 612am
- 641am
- 702am
- 820am
then hourly.
That makes absolutely zero sense. An 80-minute gap in Doylestown departures between 702 and 820? And then hourly departures...AFTER rush hour has ended? If that is not proof posotive that SEPTA has little to no interest in their railroad division, I do not know what does.

I take the R5 to/from Paoli every day + the MFL. The MFL is run very well. Service every 6 minutes during the rush hour, then every 8 during off peak. Frequent headways. SEPTA knows how to run the subways. Railroad is woefully underserved.

jb9152 wrote:

Pacobell73 wrote:Actually, if remember correctly, the biggest gripe the GOP in Harrisburg has is that transportation funds seem to always go to Pittsburgh and Philly, virutally ignoring the rest of the state. If the commuter lines were excised from SEPTA, then SEPTA could ask for funds for their subways, trolleys and busses (Pittsburgh is a non-issue, due to the lack of commuter trains). The commuter trains, on the other hand, would be asking for funds for services that run outside of the 5-county region, benefitting a greater amount of political leaders and their constituents. Then, Harrisburg GOP will not complain. Think about it. SEPTA as it is currently set up, is a strangehold on the growth for the very region it serves.

You're dreaming. It would be a fight every year for state subsidy money.

Never said it would not be. Public transportation always fights for nickles and dimes. But SEPTA is killing what little credibility they have by keeping a railroad division they have no idea how to operate.

Now, let's get back on topic...

I just want to say this quickly, and I'm done.

Pacobell - I don't know how to put this any other way, so I'll just be blunt. It's painfully obvious to those of us who actually work in the industry that most of what you claim to know is based on either hearsay or gross assumption. I don't like to start conflicts, but you make statements with such an air of supposed knowledge and experience, and so I fear others will read what you write and take it too seriously, causing misinformation to spread. What really concerns me the most is that you seem like you're ready to take action on what you think you know. I once read an anecdote that said something to the effect of "The wise man has large eyes, large ears, and a small mouth." Consider that.

Like limejuice, I won't belabor this much longer as we veer further and further off topic. But I just have to say my piece.

Pacobell73 wrote:Because the current setup is doing so well? SEPTA runs the railroad division well? Are you for real? If have a wholly separate organization is a bad idea, then suggest a better one than the current set up. The brass at SEPTA have always given priority in this following order:
1) busses
2) subway
3) trolleys, which they would love to eliminitate in favour of bustitution
4) trackless trolley, another area they nearly destroyed
5) railroad - a distant, distant 5th

Your evidence for this ranking? Beyond your own personal beliefs and a few conversations with like-minded railbuffs or disgruntled railroad employees?

Pacobell73 wrote:It does not matter how smart and rational SEPTA's railroad division personnel are. I know they know their stuff, and many are holdovers from Conrail (at least they were in the 1980s). They are reporting, however, to brass whose priority it is to run busses and subways. I have spoken to more than one railroad division conductor and motorman, and have discussed this endlessly. Many want to leave SEPTA and work where they can do their job. They know that their division under SEPTA auspices is like squeezing a square box into a round hole.

First of all - for someone who speaks with seemingly so much confidence and authority on the subject...motorman? I'm really not one to split hairs or engage in "gotcha!!" arguments, but - you do know, don't you, that the people who operate trains on SEPTA's RRD are engineers, right?

Beyond that, I'll ask again - evidence? You make these bold statements about "many" wanting to leave. You based this on conversations with a few employees? Did you take a poll? Or did you once again simply take your own inbred railbuff opinions and project them onto hundreds of SEPTA employees?

Pacobell73 wrote:Case in point - there is a painful gap in R5 Doylestown service during the AM rush hour:

- 525am
- 612am
- 641am
- 702am
- 820am
then hourly.
That makes absolutely zero sense. An 80-minute gap in Doylestown departures between 702 and 820? And then hourly departures...AFTER rush hour has ended? If that is not proof posotive that SEPTA has little to no interest in their railroad division, I do not know what does.

Do you know what the demand is during those times? Is there truly a need there that's not being met, or are you yet again projecting a railbuff dream of trains, trains, trains, all the time no matter if there's anyone to ride them, and the costs be damned? There is likely a very *very* good operational reason (or more likely several reasons) for the gap. I know several of the gentlemen who write the schedules, and they are to a man professional, knowledgeable, and dedicated to balancing service against demand as efficiently as they can.

Pacobell73 wrote:I take the R5 to/from Paoli every day + the MFL. The MFL is run very well. Service every 6 minutes during the rush hour, then every 8 during off peak. Frequent headways. SEPTA knows how to run the subways. Railroad is woefully underserved.

This speaks for itself. If you're arguing that RRD headways should approach those of the MFL, you're simply an ill-informed ideologue. There is no justifiable reason to have such frequent service on a regional rail service. For someone who professes to know so much about how SEPTA has "transitized" its railroad service, you show little to no grasp of the basic differences in rail rapid transit versus regional rail.

Pacobell73 wrote:Never said it would not be. Public transportation always fights for nickles and dimes. But SEPTA is killing what little credibility they have by keeping a railroad division they have no idea how to operate.

So, your solution would be to take an underfunded authority and spread the mediocrity around by forcing the organizations to compete for the scarce operating funds they need to keep running, and the scarce capital funds they need to stay at a state of good repair or improve infrastructure. Brilliant.

And, one more time, I'll ask - evidence that SEPTA doesn't know how to operate the railroad? That's a bold statement and I would expect you to have some better evidence than "I talked to a motorman" and "the Paoli line doesn't run every 6 minutes".

Pacobell73 wrote:Now, let's get back on topic...

Gladly.

Ok everyone, lets calm down.Everyone is entitled to there opinion whether we all like it or not and yes I had to learn that as well. Im a railroader, but Im not a disgruntled railroader and I dont believe hear say unless I experienced it first hand. Does Septa know how to run a railroad? Yes and no although I tend to lean more towards no but thats not to say that they havent done things right or had some bright spots(im not going to say what the are, just want to make my point before going to bed) in its history of running the RRD.I dont think Septa running the Fox Chase to Newtown segment as a rapid transit wouldve been a bad idea and in theory it shouldve worked, but Septa did this on the cheap and without doing any upgrades to road crossings etc that they decided to run the line the way they wanted to and it resulted in this accident and death and injuries.Had Septa had listened to the railroaders on how the cars shouldve been ran, then its possible the accident wouldnt had happened, although I tend to think that Septa let this accident happen to just shut this line down. Of course theres no hard evidence of that and Im just speculating .Could the line survived if Septa got what it wanted by running it as a rapid transit? Im going to say no as well. The line was dying for a long time and unfortunately, it died at the wrong time because of the explosion(no pun intended) in population and traffic in recent years. Do I think railroads are far more superior or safer then rapid transit lines? No. Each one does what they are intended to do and they do it well.I dont like trying to intermingle and a complete seperation shouldve taken place and that would be my argument on why the line failed because Septa didnt try to seperate and replace things like they shouldve if they wanted it to work. Railroad rules are known to be written in blood and that I think is the basis for everyones argument about running the line as a rapid transit line. It was never upgraded and essentially still a railroad line and they tried to run it like an overgrown trolley car so to speak without taking the necessary precautions to properly run it that way. I understand where JB is coming from because what I can gather the past few years on this board, you are more of an office person, or a planner so you know what it takes to go into operations or planning, but then theres people like me or JT who actually are out in the field running the trains and can only speak from our own experiences. There are prime examples of lines being resereccted as light rail and performs very well such as Hudson Bergen or River Line, but the River Line is almost railroad anyway with its signals, grade crossing protections and rules but without railroad trains running, just light rail cars. So now what??? What did we all just resolve? Nothing I suppose.........Everyone goodnight and be safe and lets put this thread to bed. Its an ugly tragedy and some hard feelings on what we all believe is right.....

Just adding a quick follow-up to this wreck. No doubt that SEPTA used the wrong RDCs to run as solo units. See details of the RDCs SEPTA operated. Car #s 9151 and 9152 were the only two equipped with "excitation." Poor 9164 was the one slaughtered in the fire.


9164 before the fire

9164 during the Bar-B-Q

9164 afterwards


Then the rest of the RDCs were sitting idle, as seen here in 8/1/83, nearly eight months after service ceased. Because busses are better, you see.


Threads merged and unlocked -ed

I thought I had read somewhere along the line that the excitation devices on 9151 and 9152 were either removed or disabled long before Septa took over operation of the RDC's, possibly in the 70's when cab signal equipment was also removed.

Not according to the NTSB report.

Actually just went back and re-read one of MY old posts (oldtimers setting in ) and yes, at least 9152 still had the excitation equipment and it was functional. Sorry for the error.

Too bad they all didn't have them. I guess they were ridiculously expensive and/or difficult to install?

One other thought, how well did these single car RDC signal activators work? I've heard of cases where somebody claimed a regular multi car passenger train didn't activate the signals. I'm not saying those claims were valid all the time, but I'm sure somebody has claimed it.

I also remember on the Ocean City-Cape May line they ran 2 car RDC's which split into single cars, 1 for Ocean City, 1 for Cape May. One time I noticed bubbles welded to the rails just before and after grade crossings. Someone told me those bubbles were to help the single cars activate the crossing signals. So maybe there's more to successful signals than just excitation equipment on the cars.

Yes, those bead welds on the top of the rails do assist in shunting the grade crossing circuits by adding contact area between the wheels and the rail. They are quite prevalant along the PRSL /CMSL line between Cape May CH and Cape May and can be easily felt when passing over them. Obviously they also add to wheel wear so you wouldn't want them everywhere.

As far as mutliple RDC consists having problems with activation, that was true. The Reading was known to occasionally run the FP-7 / standard coach "push-pull" train on midday Bethleham runs to "shine the rails" when problems arose with signal and grade crossing activation.

Re: 1982 RDC wreck details?
by glennk419 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:54 am

Yes, those bead welds on the top of the rails do assist in shunting the grade crossing circuits by adding contact area between the wheels and the rail.

In my expereience the bead of weld is applied with a stainless steel welding rod, so does not rust and therefore provides reliable shunting even on tracks that are verey seldom used, such as emergency crossovers. Even though the Chicago Transit authority trains are electric, so are much more likely to shunt, many of their seldom used tracks have the weld bead.

The engineer who died in that 1982 wreck on the newtown line was a good friend and coworker, his name is Donald Williams my he rest in peace. I just love to read all the know it all people who know nothing about this operation that was the newtown-foxchase line. I ran those RDC cars with Donald and a group of good men who after finding out that the Conrail engineers considered us scabs just wanted out. Septa had other plans and took our subway jobs off the board, we had no job to go back to. On the matter of running one RDC car and the shunting factor, as a dispatcher in contact with Wayne dispatchers from Conrail I was well informed about the Conrail book of rules in regards to running two cars at all times due to safety factors with shunting signals at grade crossings. I reported said conversations to the ones in charge but to no avail. Also on that ridiculous statement that the engineer Donald Williams locked the cab door let me say this "are you nuts" Donald as well as the rest of us up there never locked the cab doors besides this was the suburbs not the subway ok...Thank you for your time....Subway511