#14 Orange Line Cars 1400-1551 (From Red/Orange Procurement discussion)

The 01200s are in a somewhat more protected environment than the Blue Line's 0600s, which run mainly outdoors and were exposed the brackish salt marsh. This may help them last somewhat longer.

R36 Combine Coach wrote:The 01200s are in a somewhat more protected environment than the Blue Line's 0600s, which run mainly outdoors and were exposed the brackish salt marsh. This may help them last somewhat longer.

The 0600's run mainly outdoors ? Both tunnels are approximately the same length. (A warm environment after exposure to moisture or chemicals is what hastens corrosion, anyway.) Brackish salt marsh ? How come the E/B/T No. 1 & 2's lasted almost 60 years with practically no sign of rust or corrosion ? Their St. Louis Co. second-generation were the same after about 30 years. The Hawker-Siddeley's ("Disolver-Suddenly's") started to disintegrate before our very eyes soon after introduction, so it seemed. I'll suggest a very simple explanation - their metal components are junk.

3rdrail wrote:

R36 Combine Coach wrote:The 01200s are in a somewhat more protected environment than the Blue Line's 0600s, which run mainly outdoors and were exposed the brackish salt marsh. This may help them last somewhat longer.

The 0600's run mainly outdoors ? Both tunnels are approximately the same length. (A warm environment after exposure to moisture or chemicals is what hastens corrosion, anyway.) Brackish salt marsh ? How come the E/B/T No. 1 & 2's lasted almost 60 years with practically no sign of rust or corrosion ? Their St. Louis Co. second-generation were the same after about 30 years. The Hawker-Siddeley's ("Disolver-Suddenly's") started to disintegrate before our very eyes soon after introduction, so it seemed. I'll suggest a very simple explanation - their metal components are junk.

Yes, but chances are that the 01200s had metal components that were just as bad. They're only less corroded because the environment they traveled through was less harsh. Even with the better environment, I've seen plenty of 01200s that look quite rusty (certainly more so than any of the Red Line cars).

Oh, yeah. My point is that both are junk. The Pullman-Standards that they replaced (avatar) were worn when they retired...but they were worn, not half rotted and the other half God knows what. Let's send the Hawker R/T/C's and the Breda streetcars to China in exchange for a large fried rice.

The orange line's hawkers are nearing the end of their life span as well. Riding in them, they feel like they could fall apart at any second (same with the 0600s when they were in service). I'm sure the briny air had something to do with it, but both lines had the cars exposed to the elements and they are rust buckets!

jamesinclair wrote:Point taken.

Which leads back to my first point: why wasn't their another joint blue/orange train order?

Probably cost, although it may be that a joint order was in mind, but if the cars turned out to be lemons, they don't want to pay for more lemons.

diburning wrote: Probably cost, although it may be that a joint order was in mind, but if the cars turned out to be lemons, they don't want to pay for more lemons.

Yeah, not only would it have been difficult to swing politically (three car orders in quick succession would have been pushing it) but it's important to keep in mind the Blue Line order came about at the height of the Breda debacle. It was probably a better option to play it safe than end up dealing with potentially three lines of junky trains.

While the Siemens trains turned out to be quite nice (though maybe a bit "stiff" now and again), I can understand why the 01200 replacement was put off for a while.

How are NYCTA's R160 going out there?? Those might be a good idea for RL and OL if the money is there!!!

They are doing great down there, so hopefully if the MBTA want to get such cars, they could with the Red & Orange Line with Alstom & Kawasaki or Bombardier. With the Red 69 feet long but I'd want to shrink the length of the Orange Line Fleet from 65 feet back down to their original length to 48' 6" so that they can be flexible and have more cars and variable OL train lengths

I said this in the "Orange Line questions" thread, but it's more relevant here.

Orange Line No. 14 and Red Line No. 4 Car Procurement
This project will fund the design of the next generation vehicle for both the
Orange and Red lines. The procurement of new cars will be needed to allow
the retirement of the Red Line No. 1 cars and Orange Line No. 12 vehicles.

You can find these here: http://www.mbta.com/about_the_mbta/financials/?id=1052

SM89 wrote:I said this in the "Orange Line questions" thread, but it's more relevant here.

Orange Line No. 14 and Red Line No. 4 Car Procurement
This project will fund the design of the next generation vehicle for both the
Orange and Red lines. The procurement of new cars will be needed to allow
the retirement of the Red Line No. 1 cars and Orange Line No. 12 vehicles.

You can find these here: http://www.mbta.com/about_the_mbta/financials/?id=1052

While a good (and informative) read, it doesn't really spec out anything on the car acquisition process, or what the T is looking for.

One thing is very likely to happen with this new car order. I don't want to get off topic with the following or discuss it here, but the new Red and Orange line cars could be equipped with security CCTV cameras just like buses and certain of the 01200s.

I'm sure on that one I believe a few Blue Line cars had Cams on them...I remember seeing them in Pics while they were in testing!!!

The cameras on the Blue Line cars were for clearance testing and were promptly removed.

I believe it was a post on here somewhere, but I'm not sure. Someone said something about the new order having 3-car-marriages (instead of a pair of 2, middle car with no cabs) and that they'd be articulated. Was this purely fantasy/speculation or is there some basis to this?

Does off-peak ridership on the Red or Orange Line justify running trains with only three cars? If the T were to order new trains for the Red and Orange lines configured in triplets, you'd only be able to run trains of three or six cars, nothing in between. When I lived in Boston (2003-2005), I never saw an off-peak Orange Line train running with anything less than six cars. I do recall riding four-car off-peak trains on the Red Line. But I don't think three-car trains would be sufficient for either line. It may be best to stick with pairs. You can have sets of articulated marred pairs.