Yard on Port Jefferson Line

Where are they proposing to build a yard, and are they proposing anything in Smithtown or Saint James?

They're proposing the yard wherever they can put it.

I don't even get the point. By the time the LIRR's done with it, it would have been cheaper to just electrify the line, which is what everyone up there's wanted for the last decade or two anyway. the price tag on the yard is already 200+ million, and a site hasn't even been selected, no real EIS has been done, no real hearings have been held on it, no legal battles fought. I'm having a very hard time believing that mostly single track rail line with high level platforms is going to cost more than that that to electrify.

*rant mode on*
And, I fully predict if (and that's a big IF) the yard ever does get built, there will be no third rail to it, no third rail in it, and no third rail beyond the existing terminus, period. Anyone who paid attention when the LIRR was pushing the DM-30 remembers that they were always looking to stick a diesel storage yard on the PJ line, and the Cerro site was the first place it was going, and after Cerro got killed as a yard, they said they were going to move up the line.

IMHO, the LIRR has <b>zero</b> intention of electrifying past Huntington, and has zero intention of ever using said yard as an MU storage yard. As an MU yard, it makes no sense. And electrifying the PJ line would be basically admitting what riders on the line have known and been saying for years, which is the dual modes were simply a bad idea. The MTA/LIRR would rather burn a few hundred million in taxpayer's dollars than admit it screwed up.

The LIRR has never been able to explain with any amount of believeability why the PJ line needs a 16 track yard somewhere between Huntington and PJ to provide more frequent service on a dual tracked rail line. It makes zero sense at all.
*rant mode off*

Realistically, I don't see a yard getting built. The LIRR's going to have to fight such an uphill battle at a time when the NY MTA in general is starting to become a popular punching bag and a hot button issue with most of NY below Westchester. If the LIRR's smart, they'll avoid adding fuel to the fire and withdraw this pointless plan and listen to the communities along the line.

Is there room at the old Kings Park State Hospital to place the yard?

There's an abandoned lumber yard in Smithtown, just west of the station, across from the flea market (old-timers will remember the flea market as Billy Blakes), but I don't think that's large enough for a yard.

The KPPH site is what I was saying for a while, but then I realized that if they're gonna extend electrification at all, they might as well just extend it all the way to PJ. They got the yard already. It'd save them a load of cash.

Save a Few Million and aide in getting "big mama" outa financal hock, by doing a full electrifaction, Or Spend Millions that you done even have to build a "diesel" storage yard.

9/10 commuters on the PJ would demend total electrfaction, and if im not mistaking it requries less work then a full yard, and the ROW is already there. also it fittis the avg, American way of doing business. Cheep, Quicker,Eaiser" then having to find land, regrade it, just start laying track, (take a year/2 off in the middle of the project) and so on.

I hate to see the diesels go but I think the PJ is long over due.

ex, for now, eletrify out to Norhport. (plenty of room for a long siding)then use diesel to PJ, while you fininish up the line. if done Correctly 4-6 years at teh max, thats with continous work on the line and absoulutly no bullshit derailing the project. NIMBYS have no oppion on the project. (eletric is less noiser* cleaner and cheeper to oprate in the long run).

that my opinoion,
Joe

<i>Save a Few Million and aide in getting "big mama" outa financal hock, by doing a full electrifaction, Or Spend Millions that you done even have to build a "diesel" storage yard. </i>

This is why the yard proposal is <b>stupid</b> It's simply 200+ million wasted on a yard that will become totally useless one the third rail goes down.

<i>9/10 commuters on the PJ would demend total electrfaction, and if im not mistaking it requries less work then a full yard, and the ROW is already there. also it fittis the avg, American way of doing business. Cheep, Quicker,Eaiser" then having to find land, regrade it, just start laying track, (take a year/2 off in the middle of the project) and so on. </i>

9/10ths of the people in the area, period. As far as tossing down third rail, they have to retie the line anyway (thanks to EMD being unable to build a decent locomotive), it's not going to be very hard. The platforms are high already, so yet another big cost is out of the way.

And, it's <b>needed</b> anyway. The Ronkonkoma line can't handle the load, riders are simply not going to ride the PJ line as long as it's diesel. Give people a choice between the two, they'll prefer electric just about every time.

<i>I hate to see the diesels go but I think the PJ is long over due.

I don't. IMHO, the LIRR should have ditched diesel operation years ago. It makes no sense.

Look at the east end. Western Suffolk is getting as crowded as Nassau. The development isn't going to stop. The forks and such are going to be the next suburban area. Rail service is going to have to build up in the east end and that means electrification, period. On top of which, the EPA's ever tightening noose around the NY region means we're gonna have to start looking at sources besides cars to clean up. And the LIRR's diesels are very dirty.

Nevermind that people will ooner or later be piled ontop of each other and living next to the tracks. And frankly, the old 'The train was here first!" whine simply holds no water with anyone these days, like it or not.

Long term, electrification is only going to help the Island and the LIRR. Long term, the LIRR will ultimately HAVE to be all electric. Period. There's no avoiding it. It'll need to be done to handle the traffic, and the LIRR will need to handle the traffic because the LIE simply can't and there's NOWHERE to build or expand highways.

On top of which, the DMs can't go to GCT or FBA. It's unrealistic to expect after ESA opens to see lots more DM operations into Penn because the stupid things don't work right <b>now</b>. They're not going to work any better 10 years from now, and certainly not when they're getting 10X the use they get today.

<i>ex, for now, eletrify out to Norhport. (plenty of room for a long siding)then use diesel to PJ, while you fininish up the line.</i>

Cheap and easy. It's what, 3 or 4 miles to Northport from the existing end of the third rail?

<i> if done Correctly 4-6 years at teh max, thats with continous work on the line and absoulutly no bull derailing the project.</i>

IMHO, the physical rail itself can be all put down in maybe 2 summers, via a concrete tie project. The substations can be located and built independently, and once a region is concreted and third railed, you just need to do the signal mods (impedence bonds, ASC) before you put power onto the third rail.

I think it can be done in under 4 years.

<i> NIMBYS have no oppion on the project. (eletric is less noiser* cleaner and cheeper to oprate in the long run). </i>

NIMBYS won't fight it because it's what everyone WANTS. The LIRR's going to fight a <b>HUGE</b> uphill battle to build a yard, anywhere. Electrification could start next spring, easy. There's just not going to be opposition to it.

IMHO, the only reason the LIRR's so against it is they really really really don't want to admit the DM-30s have been a total failure.

I guess if they don't get message, Albany will get involved. Already, opponents to the yard have gotten sympathtic ears.

"riders are simply not going to ride the PJ line as long as it's diesel. Give people a choice between the two, they'll prefer electric just about every time."

Ugh. I don't know why I have to constantly explain this to you. The only reason they choose electric lines over diesel is cuz LIRR allows the diesel line to be such crap. The DMs can go to NYP, providing the same one seat ride that the electrics can.

<i>Ugh. I don't know why I have to constantly explain this to you. The only reason they choose electric lines over diesel is cuz LIRR allows the diesel line to be such crap.</i>

The LIRR's diesel lines are just the same as everyone elses. Metra is slow, the MBTA is slow, Caltrain is slow. None of them are any differentfrom the LIRR's diesel lines. Ditto for MN's diesel territory.

The reason people choose electrics over diesels is cause diesels flat out suck. They're slow, they smell, they break, they get stuck on slippery track in the fall and winter.

No matter how you slice it, an EMU will always outperform a locomotive haulled diesel train. It's simple physics. A DE-30 has 3000 or less HP for a 4 car train, meaning nearly 900,000 lbs of weight being pulled by 3000 hp, or 1 hp per 300 lbs. A 6 car train of M-1s has 3300 HP for less than 600,000 lbs of weight, or 1 hp per 180lbs. For roughly the same passenger capacity, you get a nearly 2X power advantage with MUs, meaning better acceleraton, better grade climbing. The M-7s actually fare slightly better, assuming 800hp (yes, I know they're carded for 1080 per car, but I'm not sure what the derated number is).

No matter how you slice it, MUs can offer a faster schedule, hands down. And speed is what sells commuter rail.

NIMBYkiller wrote: Ugh. I don't know why I have to constantly explain this to you. The only reason they choose electric lines over diesel is cuz LIRR allows the diesel line to be such crap.

Nimby, and I don't know why everyone has to explain to you constantly that diesels are inferior to electrics. Take it from someone that actually loves the diesels much better than the electrics. They are always more fun to "railfan", however, for commuters (which is the point of the LIRR), the electrics are better.

The only reason they choose electric lines over diesel is cuz LIRR allows the diesel line to be such crap. The DMs can go to NYP, providing the same one seat ride that the electrics can.

Electric trains can start and stop much faster, the acceleration is faster, especially on a RR like the LIRR where the stations are fairly close together. DM's can go to Penn, providing a close to the same one seat ride that electrics can, however, the electrics will do it faster. There is nothing "crappy" about service on the diesel lines. The Montauk Branch runs hourly service during the day, and basically 1/2 hourly service rush hours from Patchogue and west. How much better than that do you want? There is nothing "crappy" about that, and still the majority of people of the South Shore in Suffolk hoarde to the Ronkonkoma Branch because it's electrified. The same with the Prt Jeff branch. The weekday and rush hour service is far from "crappy", yet the majority of people hoard to the the Ronkonkoma branch too from the North Shore.

The Ronkonkoma Branch before 1987 was a little almost "rural" stop, similar to the way Patchogue looks today, and it ran pretty decent service even before electrification, hourly and better at rush hours. Yet the station "exploded" once electrification came. This little building on one track and average parking lot was able to handle the loads before electrification in 1987:




I love diesels WAY more than electrics, but you have to be realistic, electrics do work better for a commuter Railroad such as the LIRR.

Actually it is a one seat ride that people want, that is why people prefer MU's over Diesels, I have never once heard a customer complain about acceleration or lack of. In fact it only seems important to some of you here. Well I hate to tell you but acceleration does not matter,as long as the train is fast enough to keep schedule. For obvious reasons we can not leave stations early ( to be accurate there are some PM peak trains that can leave up to 3 min early)what good is it to arrive at a station faster if you have to sit in the station for 5 min beacuse you got there early. Of course now some of you are saying "So what ?Adjust the schedules" Sure that can be done, but don't forget 5 branches converge at Valley and feed into 2 branches . On North Shore 5 branches feeding into one from Beth to Queens. Then the 3 remaning branches Mainline, Atlantic and Montauk meet at Jamaica, so there arrivals must be staggered so trains don't have to sit in Hall awaiting track space in Jamaica, and besides stagering the arrivals trains still have to arrive at the right time to make there connections to Penn , FBA or HPA, Then the trains have to be worked into the available slots at Penn and FBA. So changin adjusting the schedules of one branch means adjusting the schedules of all branches. And beside even if the PJ (and the OB for that matter) is electrified so what? The exsiting speed restrictions will still be in place, and the PJ is still going to be single track, it will not speed up service beyond the time saved by not changing trains.
As far as the Yard on the PJ branch it will be built ,and it is neccessary.And as I have said before the purpose of the yard is to store more trains not to extend 3rd rail. Any extension of 3rd rail is a result of the yard not the purpose of it. Huntington is very busy branch, and right now it only has room to lay up 4 MUs-3 in the Southside extension and 1 in the North Track that is the same capicity as the Far Rock Branch wich is much less busy. That means that crews who should be starting and finishing in Huntington now have to start and finish in WSY. Is the only terminal on the RR without a yard. How do people expect service to increase without more trains?? When ESA is open the RR will have so much additional capicity, imagine the uproar when every branch on the RR gets more trains except PJ because Hunt has no yard.

If the electricficationis extended to atleast Northport. some trains can deadhead at Northport while others in Hunt.
would that allow for both more electric service and another siding to deadhead MU's?

Also with a full eletrification then would there still be a great need to store as many trains in Hunt if they would be able to make it out to PJ?

I could see alot of the off peak trains dead head at Hunt, but run all the on peak trains stright through.

a siding in Northport is totally feisable, and to buy more leinght only 1 x-ing will need mods. then there could easilly be 2 platforms, and a real long siding to handle meets/deadheads.

bluebelly wrote: I have never once heard a customer complain about acceleration or lack of. In fact it only seems important to some of you here. Well I hate to tell you but acceleration does not matter,as long as the train is fast enough to keep schedule. For obvious reasons we can not leave stations early ( to be accurate there are some PM peak trains that can leave up to 3 min early)what good is it to arrive at a station faster if you have to sit in the station for 5 min beacuse you got there early.

Acceleration does matter because it makes the trains quicker. Not only is serivce on the Ronkonkoma branch one seat now, it is faster now with electrification than when it it used diesels.
I don't have an schedule from the line from the 80's, but do have one from the 70's. The average trains making most stops took about an hour and 45 minutes or so, and about an hour and 35 minutes express. Today's electric trains making most stops take about an hour and a half mintutes or so, but can be faster if they are express like an hour and 20 minutes or even a good hour on some super expresses.
The layover for "Change at Hicksville" where is where the majority of the trains had the passengers change (like at Babylon) was generally 5 minutes, so that can't be attributed to all the time savings now that they are electric.

The MU's on the Mainline to Ronkonkoma are overrated. The main reason service was slower in the "diesel" days on the Mainline was the signal system. Prior to electrification, it was Single track 251 with Manual Block signalling. Once they went to 261 with Automatic Block signalling and in some places multiple track, running times were cut dramatically.

During snowstorms, when the MU's had to hide in the Atlantic Branch tunnel, I have run diesel passenger trains when the GP's were still on the LIRR to KO and kept the same schedule as the present MU's. When we had the old signal system on the Mainline, it was much more slower. The present MU Mainline schedule is designed around an average 60mph speed.

I also ran diesels to KO when we had Single track 251 to KO and later with the present 261 and can personally attest to the difference.

The LIRR DID NOT electrify the Mainline for better running times. They did it for a "one seat" ride. Higher maximum speeds are a byproduct of the electrification, but that has since been moot with the present 80mph diesels. There is also a school of thought on the LIRR that, it should not "whittle away" at its diesel fleet because they must have a somewhat sizable diesel fleet to augment the MU's in the winter during inclement weather. The diesels are their "saviors" NOT the MU's.

Pt. Jeff was ignored for electrification because of the curves. No matter what they do, even a Japanese Bullet train would be limited on that Branch due to the curves. This is why the Mainline was selected for electrification...centrally located and very straight. To speed up running times on the Pt. Jeff, they did what was necessary..they modernized the signalling to Automatic Block and 261, plus double tracked from Amott to Hunt. Electrification would only give the one seat ride to Penn. Like I said, the diesels are 80mph trains now, so higher MAS is moot.

On a final note, the LIRR spent a half-billion taxpayer dollars on a new diesel fleet. To junk them now and spend billions more on electrifying and even more equipment purchases would be a crime.

On a final note, the LIRR spent a half-billion taxpayer dollars on a new diesel fleet. To junk them now and spend billions more on electrifying and even more equipment purchases would be a crime.

And the entire DE/DM-30 purchase has been a complete disaster and debackle. Why they didn't go for "off the rack" proven engines is beyond me. No, the MTA had to custom make this "half-billion taxpayer dollar" new diesel fleet, and it was a complete fiasco.
The LIRR was desperate for a new fleet, and it finally gets it...and it's those pieces of crap. The diesel coaches are fine, but the engines leave much to be desired.

**Cough..Cough**
Man was it hard to start snapping photos of these. Although it was either that, or give up on the LIRR!





I guess over time their look has grown on me, and at least I don't have to cover my eyes when I see one, but if they were ugly, at least they could have run good![/img]