WNYRHS status

A comment about the WNYRHS group on a different thread sparked my curiosity about what's going on, or not going on back in the Buffalo area. What's the latest with this group? What are they working on these days? What are their goals and objectives, either short term or long term? Several years ago, they were in the center of attempting to create a museum in the downtown area, but that idea seems to be dead for some time now. Is the organization still pursuing setting up a museum? I should clarify my definition of "museum" as someplace to restore and display equipment. The WNYRHS has done a fine job with restoring the Orchard Park and Williamsville depots, but outside of that, especially in the area of equipment restoration there doesn't seem to be much going on.

Obviously, comments from an outside observer -- merely curious and nothing more.

I asked this very same question of this group a while ago, and got no response.

I am proud to say that there Pennsylvania Railroad Decopod #4483 is what sparked my interest in railroading. My oldest memory as a child is watching the Strates fair train being unloaded, with PRR #4483 in the background. They have a very extensive collection, including 8 "cabeese", 8 or 9 passenger cars, a hand full of freight cars, and 3 snow plows. There equipment is well worth a visit! However, I must say, that very little, if anything is ever done with any of it. #4483 was given a new paint job sometime in 2003 I believe. 5 of there NYC coaches run excursions via the Falls Road RR, out of Medina, and that is about it! Check out there calendar page: http://www.trainweb.org/wnyrhs/calendar ... ource1.htm you will find no restoration dates, or volunteering dates. Nothing to do with the equipment they own. Just meeting after meeting.

There main purpose now is just there annual train shows. They charge an admission at the door, supposedly to go toward the restoration of there equipment. Now, I am totally aware that restoration costs a lot of time and money. However, I think that the WNYRHS could learn a thing or two from the Central Terminal Restoration Corporation. We give tours, and conduct clean up sessions. All with volunteer labor, and donated equipment. If the two groups could come together it would be fantastic.

I have volunteered many hours now with the CTRC, and I feel as though I have accomplished something. The building is now totally sealed up from vandals and the elements, and we have a steady cash flow through our tours, and merchandise sales.

When I pay $5 to go to a WNYRHS train shows, I get a great show, don't get me wrong, however, I am pretty sure that the money doesn't go towards restoring anything.

That is my two cents!

They have operable locomotives that are just sitting out in the elements and deteriorating from the weather and vandals. I don't mean to rail on these guys - but either do something or give them up to someone who will do something.

Hey Nessman,
Now you started something......I have had a beef about the Mohawk & Hudson Chapter for years! They have done the same thing. They have 2 of the rarest electric locomotives built by Alco starting with a S-1 built in 1906.
That and the T3a electric areand have been both rusting away foir years out doors!
I agree....Take care of the equipment or give to someone who can!

Thats my 2 cents!
John

Let's skip including the M&H in this discussion -- there's been enough written about those guys recently (and rightly so), no need to beat a dead horse. That would be getting us off this topic....

Please define "operable locomotives". A locomotive that is just sitting only needing fuel and someone to push the start button??? I doubt it. I would certainly hope that if they had an operable locomotive, that the WNYRHS would have attempted to lease the unit out to say the DL&W/Falls Road, BSOR or somebody else. What else does this locomotive need to become operable? Does it need major engine work, a new set of wheels, rebuilt air brake system, a set of batteries, etc??? Not so simple as fill 'er up and go.

Getting back to the original topic, what's the root cause of the problem here? Apathy? Old age of membership? Financial hardship? All of the above??? Maybe someone with an inside connection can enlighten....

All museums have the same problem- time, money, and people. You need all three to pursue any restoration projects... so dont rail on them too hard.

-otto-

Like I said, they have such an impressive collection, so I won't RAIL on them to hard....

I am positive that non of there motive power is operable. As for the question of what is the problem... I beleave it to be age. If you go to there train shows you see that all of there trustees are at least 90 years old!! LOL, maybe not that old, but I'm sure every one of them remembers the good old days of steam, if you know what I mean. Ohh, they have younger members, I was a member myself up til 2 years ago. I decided to stop wasting my money. They have open meetings, even if no one is allowed to talk at them.

Something must be done!!!

Well there is time, money, and one more thing POLITICS. It would be great to have all of the rail road rolling stock in one place at one time. But there are monetary difficulties to move the rolling stock and then limited space to put them. Also, the WNYRHS rarely will associate with the NRHS Niagara Frontier Chapter to plan an event. They don't even show up at each others rail shows.

Ideally the WNYRHS would expand the trackage in Williamsville to mirror the LV Yard of the olden days. Then they could place the rolling stock on the tracks. They could also try to increase trackage at Orchard Park, but space is an issue.

Maybe the collection of the WNYRHS should be called "Rent a Wreck" because most of it has not been properly maintained for various reasons. The Pennsylvania locomotive in Hamburg is the only thing holding the piece of track it is sitting on together. The locomotive would not run unless it was rehabbed.

That's about all I know.

Someone from the WNYRHS has been telling people in Jamestown that that PRR locomotive is usable and will run excursions in and around Jamestown, NY.

The people in charge of the Erie Lackawanna station preservation continue to trumpet that this locomotive will be proudly displayed and used as such. I personally sent an e-mail looking for clarification from the WNYRHS and got no response. Someone up in Buffalo is spreading it around pretty thick to someone.

Dave Becker

I have posted two photos I took in October 2002. Unless things have changed significantly...I suspect the locomotive looks much like it did then. I last saw it in Spring of this year. According to the former tenant of the Hamburg ex ERIE station, he has seen this locomotive for 5 years and nothing has been done to it (2003).

http://photos.yahoo.com/BugBoy1998_1999

From there website:
"#4483 is still undergoing cosmetic restoration at this time and has just recieved a complete paint job in May 2003. Plans for operational restoration are not in the immediate future due to the economic climate and the lack of railroads willing to take on the insurance risks. However, from professional mechanical inspections, the boiler has been found to be sound but will need retubing and flues. The running gear is in good shape with some spring equalizer work needed. Three years prior to retirement, #4483 had gone through a Class 3 overhaul by the Pennsylvania RR, and the Society is striving to keep the I1sa in better than good condition. As work is completed, watch for updates and new photo's"

It is simply impossible these days to run steam excusrions, unless you are running on your own ROW, Arcade & Attica - ect. 4483 is on Buffalo Southern trackage, and therefor they would have to get permission from the BSOR's insurance company. Does anyone know how this works? Do RR insurers even allow this? Anybody know anybody on the Buffalo Southern we can ask???

I found the Buffalo Southern WebPage and linked it below.

http://members.aol.com/buffalosouthern/

Maybe if you contacted the people listed under contacts you would get an answer.

Hi All! Scott H. from the WNYRHS. Well, I’ve watched this debate develop and now I feel I should “clear the air” My email is at the bottom of every web page of our site so I’m kind of surprised that no one contacted me with their questions. I’ve never tried to cover anything up and I won’t now. And in case you are wondering, I’m not an officer, trustee or chairman of anything. I’m just a life member doing what I can to help preserve our equipment, run our web site and promote our
efforts.
As ATK stated we are STILL pursuing a site for our “Museum” This is the third time we have made a pitch to the City of Buffalo that has gone nowhere. Hundreds of hours have gone into these proposals all to fall the wayside like so many others the City has had a chance to capitalize on and buried it in politics. Jack Quinn was a huge proponent of our efforts but his retirement pretty much killed our latest waterfront proposal. The NFTA won’t give an inch on the old DL&W Terminal, or the old REA property. Six other sites have been explored, plans developed and in the end the land owner pulled the plug in hopes for a better deal.
As far as equipment goes, I am one person, with a home and family and so the amount of time I can spend in Hamburg is limited. If I have to replace broken windows in the Cabeese, that is time I cannot spend working on #4483. I completely boarded up Buffalo Creek #43 to prevent any cab damage. The stack is sealed so water in the prime mover is not a concern. The batteries were dead when we got the loco so they needed
to be replaced. But as far as I KNOW, the engine does run. I can’t speak about South Buffalo #77 since it got “rail locked” but we ARE working on getting it back where it can be worked on.
Adam, I thank you for your support and compliments. Yes I did put almost 20 gallons of paint on the engine in May of 2003 and it still is shiny! I have been working on cab interior wood and new arm rests this week. I do not post “work party dates” on our calendar because the simple truth is that no one shows up. You really hit the spike on the head when you said

If you go to there train shows you see that all of there trustees are at least 90 years old!! LOL, maybe not that old, but I'm sure every one of them remembers the good old days of steam, if you know what I mean.....

We are getting “grey.” I would love to get a young enthusiastic guy involved that isn’t wrapped up in getting his career going, cars or girls. I congratulate you for being involved with the Central Terminal, you and the rest of the group are doing a fantastic job despite the “Tear the Terminal Down” crowd. However you are mistaken if you think that none of our Train Show proceeds go toward restoration. Each sheet of polycarbonate I buy now costs over $144. If you look at the plows, they have “riot” windows over the FRA Glass.

Getting back to the original topic, what's the root cause of the problem here? Apathy? Old age of membership? Financial hardship? All of the above??? Maybe someone with an inside connection can enlighten....

ATK, your points are all very credible. Although we have five coaches in revenue service on the FRRR, almost all that money is going
back into the coaches for new exterior polycarbonate and re upholstery. All of the “triple valves” got their two year “COT&S” certification this spring at a cost of over $300 each.
Thank you Otto for stating the most obvious

All museums have the same problem- time, money, and people. You need all three to pursue any restoration projects...so don’t rail on them too hard.

Well there is time, money, and one more thing POLITICS. It would be great to have all of the rail road rolling stock in one place at one time. But there are monetary difficulties to move the rolling stock and then limited space to put them. Also, the WNYRHS rarely will associate with the NRHS Niagara Frontier Chapter to plan an event. They don't even show up at each others rail shows.

WNY, we have always been at the Keenan Center except for this year because their show was rescheduled. We can’t make them come to ours. We have a 99 year lease on the depot, but the land around the Williamsville belongs to the village or is private. A piece of panel track would be all we could put
there. More Orchard Park track is in the works but POLITICS is an issue. I bet that a solid 48 hours of work could bring 2 of the diesels back to life. And yes, like ANY Steam Engine in the US, that has not run in over 5 years, $100,000 of FRA boiler work would have to be performed. Has anyone bought #2102 or #614 yet for that very same reason?
Pablo,

Someone from the WNYRHS has been telling people in Jamestown that PRR locomotive is usable and will run excursions in and around Jamestown, NY. The people in charge of the Erie Lackawanna station preservation continue to trumpet that this locomotive will be proudly displayed and used as such. I personally sent an e-mail looking for clarification from the WNYRHS and got no response. Someone up in Buffalo is spreading it around pretty thick to someone.

Its just the opposite! The Jamestown group is the one courting Us! Someone down there has very deep pockets? The loco IS useable but after a lot of work! Last I heard the economic climate in the southern tier is not any better than up here.

I have posted two photos I took in October 2002. Unless things have changed significantly...I suspect the locomotive looks much like it did then. I last saw it in Spring of this year. According to the former tenant of the Hamburg ex ERIE station, he has seen this locomotive for 5 years and nothing has been done to it (2003).

I don’t know why he said that because I talked to Scott every time I was out there, welding, grinding, hammering and painting. If you were out there this year, then this is the way you saw it, not like your photo's show.

Thanks again Andy for the support! Everything I wrote in that paragraph is true and so is your statement

It is simply impossible these days to run steam excursions, unless you are running on your own ROW, Arcade & Attica - ect. 4483 is on Buffalo Southern trackage, and therefor they would have to get permission from the BSOR's insurance company. Does anyone know how this works? Do RR insurers even allow this?

NO! Not unless you can come up with $100 million in liability insurance. Try to “lease” a car in NYS! I don’t know how #2816 managed to get through here in June on CSX.

I hope I have addressed everyone’s issues without stepping on any toes. If you wish to discuss this publicly or privately I’d be glad to help. Sincerely, Scott H.

Scott, you said: "I do not post “work party dates” on our calendar because the simple truth is that no one shows up."


Let me tell you a story about a non-RR club I belong to of about 200 members. Posted a work party, and only got 2 replies, both saying they could NOT make it. THANKS FOR THE HELP!! I sympathize with you

I can't comment about your specific statement that the people in Jamestown are courting the WNYRHS. What I can tell you is the following, and all of it comes directly from my experience with the group in question, which I would happily detail in private to someone deserving.

First of all, these are the statements as I have experienced them:
1. The WNYRHS wants to bring their locomotive down to jamestown to either park it or to run it. This statement changes depending on the day.

2. THEY SAY that the WNYRHS is in some sort of regular contact with the group in Jamestown about this.

3. THEY SAY that there will be excursions between Buffalo and Jamestown, or Jamestown and Salamanca, for instance. To run these excursions, the WNYRHS will offer their equipment for use.

The more I look at these statements, the more I can see the group here pumping them up to give the public a bone. However, they wouldn't have just said the PRR locomotive in Hamburg without someone givin them a nudge.

In a totally separate matter, both agreeing and disagreeing with the WNYRHS, I was among a group that tried to start a new RHS of some sort since the Southern Tier has none. It was hard to hold meetings, and it became impossible when our legal expert and one of the founding members and executive members died suddenly last Christmas. The work that a few of us committed was for nothing...but two comments about it. Getting people to commit to something was almost impossible. Those that did were better than gold. About the WNYRHS, since I was president of this fledgling group here in Jamestown, if everyone had been as willing to talk as you are, we would have been able to set up some stronger ties, or who knows what else. At the very least, clear up the follishness that surrounds the Jamestown area and preservation. Thanks, Scott.

Dave Becker