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  • WMATA 5000 series cars

  • Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.
Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.

Moderators: mtuandrew, therock, Robert Paniagua

 #1421115  by davinp
 
According to Thursday's Post article about the 4000 series, after Metro finishes retiring the 1000 and 4000 series this year, they will next start retiring the 5000 series. This probably won't begin until 2018.

Metro bought the 5000 series from CAF in the year 2000 to add to the fleet. However, they've been so problematic, that instead of giving them a mid-life overhaul, they've decided to retire them early.
Metro has had problems with them since they were new. You could call them lemons. Maybe it was a mistake to buy them from a Spanish company who had never built railcars for an american transit agency before. Plus Metro did not take advantage of the new technology - automatic station stop announcements (and yes they existed in 2000 because MARC and VRE had them on new Kawasaki railcars back then)

This means 600 cars will be replaced by the 7000 series: 300 1K cars, 100 4K cars and 200 5K cars. This about half the fleet.

Did you like the 500 series cars?
 #1421118  by STrRedWolf
 
davinp wrote:According to Thursday's Post article about the 4000 series, after Metro finishes retiring the 1000 and 4000 series this year, they will next start retiring the 5000 series. This probably won't begin until 2018.

Metro bought the 5000 series from CAF in the year 2000 to add to the fleet. However, they've been so problematic, that instead of giving them a mid-life overhaul, they've decided to retire them early.
Metro has had problems with them since they were new. You could call them lemons. Maybe it was a mistake to buy them from a Spanish company who had never built railcars for an american transit agency before. Plus Metro did not take advantage of the new technology - automatic station stop announcements (and yes they existed in 2000 because MARC and VRE had them on new Kawasaki railcars back then)

This means 600 cars will be replaced by the 7000 series: 300 1K cars, 100 4K cars and 200 5K cars. This about half the fleet.
Oooohkay, and no references. Let's fix that, shall we?

I found your article. It's actually posted on Wednesday (probably in print on Thursday): https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Today, because of their individual safety concerns, the 1000- and 4000-series models are the only ones condemned to be bellied between more reliable cars.

Now, the agency aims to remove all 1000- and 4000-series cars from passenger service by the end of 2017, before moving on to the 5000-series models, which number about 200 and will be replaced by the 7000-series.

Eventually, Metro plans to replace more than half the fleet with the new 7000s, manufactured by Kawasaki. The effect of retiring the old models is unlikely to be felt by riders, though — Metro is receiving about 20 of the new cars per month and getting rid of 16 to 19 of the older models. By late last year, 4000-series cars still in service made up about 7 percent of the 1,212-car passenger fleet.
Huh, no reason why they want to get rid of the 5000's. But if we dig a bit more... June 6th, 2015:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metro said it intends to use the final batch of 7K cars to replace the 197 cars of the 5000 series, or 5Ks, which were manufactured in the early 2000s. A subway car is built to last about 40 years, with a midlife overhaul. In about five years, the 5Ks would be due for overhauls, costing nearly $200 million, Metro said. To avoid that expense and to upgrade rail service, the agency wants to scrap the 5Ks many years before their time.
It's not "They're junk" but more "Ugh, we gotta upgrade the 5K's... wait, we can save that money to buy more 7K's! Lets scrap those oldies!"
 #1433212  by tommyboy6181
 
STrRedWolf wrote:
davinp wrote:According to Thursday's Post article about the 4000 series, after Metro finishes retiring the 1000 and 4000 series this year, they will next start retiring the 5000 series. This probably won't begin until 2018.

Metro bought the 5000 series from CAF in the year 2000 to add to the fleet. However, they've been so problematic, that instead of giving them a mid-life overhaul, they've decided to retire them early.
Metro has had problems with them since they were new. You could call them lemons. Maybe it was a mistake to buy them from a Spanish company who had never built railcars for an american transit agency before. Plus Metro did not take advantage of the new technology - automatic station stop announcements (and yes they existed in 2000 because MARC and VRE had them on new Kawasaki railcars back then)

This means 600 cars will be replaced by the 7000 series: 300 1K cars, 100 4K cars and 200 5K cars. This about half the fleet.
Oooohkay, and no references. Let's fix that, shall we?

I found your article. It's actually posted on Wednesday (probably in print on Thursday): https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Today, because of their individual safety concerns, the 1000- and 4000-series models are the only ones condemned to be bellied between more reliable cars.

Now, the agency aims to remove all 1000- and 4000-series cars from passenger service by the end of 2017, before moving on to the 5000-series models, which number about 200 and will be replaced by the 7000-series.

Eventually, Metro plans to replace more than half the fleet with the new 7000s, manufactured by Kawasaki. The effect of retiring the old models is unlikely to be felt by riders, though — Metro is receiving about 20 of the new cars per month and getting rid of 16 to 19 of the older models. By late last year, 4000-series cars still in service made up about 7 percent of the 1,212-car passenger fleet.
Huh, no reason why they want to get rid of the 5000's. But if we dig a bit more... June 6th, 2015:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metro said it intends to use the final batch of 7K cars to replace the 197 cars of the 5000 series, or 5Ks, which were manufactured in the early 2000s. A subway car is built to last about 40 years, with a midlife overhaul. In about five years, the 5Ks would be due for overhauls, costing nearly $200 million, Metro said. To avoid that expense and to upgrade rail service, the agency wants to scrap the 5Ks many years before their time.
It's not "They're junk" but more "Ugh, we gotta upgrade the 5K's... wait, we can save that money to buy more 7K's! Lets scrap those oldies!"
Yet the Washington Post miscounted the number of 5000 series cars that were built. There were 192 built at that time, with a few OOS or scrapped due to accidents or derailments.
 #1435022  by Chris Brown
 
jayo wrote:Considering the age, maybe they could sell the 5000's to another city, say, Philadelphia's Broad Street line?
Rail cars are not universal like power outlets where one size fits all. They are usually built specifically for the system they run on. WMATA cars would not work in Philly and vice versa. Different platform heights for one.
 #1435046  by andrewjw
 
Chris Brown wrote:
jayo wrote:Considering the age, maybe they could sell the 5000's to another city, say, Philadelphia's Broad Street line?
Rail cars are not universal like power outlets where one size fits all. They are usually built specifically for the system they run on. WMATA cars would not work in Philly and vice versa. Different platform heights for one.
Platform heights would probably be the biggest difference. Another incompatibility would be that the broad street line uses top contact 600V DC, whereas WMATA uses 750V DC top contact.

Some cross-system sales have happened, for instance several different models of Chicago el and interurban equipment have run on the NHSL (ex-P&W interurban) line. However, I doubt anywhere would be interested in the 5000s, given that WMATA, which is probably the most familiar with their systems, feels that it would be cheaper to buy new cars than repair the old.
 #1435070  by Sand Box John
 
"jayo"
Considering the age, maybe they could sell the 5000's to another city, say, Philadelphia's Broad Street line?


WMATA is scraping them for the same reason they are scraping the 4k cars, it would cost roughly the same to rehabilitate and end having something inferior to something new.

The only transit property that has a load gauge similar to WMATA is MARTA. Cab signaling would not be compatible because MARTA coded track circuits use different frequencies.
 #1435576  by jayo
 
Sand Box John wrote:"jayo"
Considering the age, maybe they could sell the 5000's to another city, say, Philadelphia's Broad Street line?


WMATA is scraping them for the same reason they are scraping the 4k cars, it would cost roughly the same to rehabilitate and end having something inferior to something new.

The only transit property that has a load gauge similar to WMATA is MARTA. Cab signaling would not be compatible because MARTA coded track circuits use different frequencies.
It wouldn't be inferior if rehabbed, it would be on par with something new! Of course, I doubt MARTA would want or need them, they have more than enough new or rehabbed cars for their system!
 #1435625  by Chris Brown
 
jayo wrote:
Sand Box John wrote:"jayo"
Considering the age, maybe they could sell the 5000's to another city, say, Philadelphia's Broad Street line?


WMATA is scraping them for the same reason they are scraping the 4k cars, it would cost roughly the same to rehabilitate and end having something inferior to something new.

The only transit property that has a load gauge similar to WMATA is MARTA. Cab signaling would not be compatible because MARTA coded track circuits use different frequencies.
It wouldn't be inferior if rehabbed, it would be on par with something new! Of course, I doubt MARTA would want or need them, they have more than enough new or rehabbed cars for their system!
But if you're going to pay the same price.. doesn't it make more sense just to get something new that will last longer? New rail cars have a 40 year lifespan. A rehab would only give you another 20 years of life. Why pay the same price for 20 years when you can get 40 years?
 #1439573  by tommyboy6181
 
jayo wrote:
Sand Box John wrote:"jayo"
Considering the age, maybe they could sell the 5000's to another city, say, Philadelphia's Broad Street line?


WMATA is scraping them for the same reason they are scraping the 4k cars, it would cost roughly the same to rehabilitate and end having something inferior to something new.

The only transit property that has a load gauge similar to WMATA is MARTA. Cab signaling would not be compatible because MARTA coded track circuits use different frequencies.
It wouldn't be inferior if rehabbed, it would be on par with something new! Of course, I doubt MARTA would want or need them, they have more than enough new or rehabbed cars for their system!
The trucks would not be compatible with MARTA either since WMATA uses 28" wheels compared to 32". Also, MARTA is looking to replace their entire fleet with 1 type of railcar now that their original cars are getting closer to reaching their end of life. Their Breda cars would be replaced as part of that plan instead of rebuilt.
 #1464142  by davinp
 
Back2Good February 2018 update

- Nearly 500 new 7000-series railcars now in service - that's more than 40% of Metro's active rail fleet.
- Almost half of the 5000-series railcars are off the tracks, and ALL 1000- and 4000-series are gone.

https://www.wmata.com/about/back2good/progress.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 #1464262  by Sand Box John
 
"daybeers"
This is great, but I really wish they would've given actual numbers as opposed to "almost half" and "nearly 500" so I could update the Metro and Metro rolling stock Wikipedia articles with a reliable source!


Media releases are written that way because the numbers will change from day to day. You want hard numbers read the program updates presentation presented to the Board of Directors that report as of this date numbers.
 #1464324  by daybeers
 
Sand Box John wrote:"daybeers"
This is great, but I really wish they would've given actual numbers as opposed to "almost half" and "nearly 500" so I could update the Metro and Metro rolling stock Wikipedia articles with a reliable source!


Media releases are written that way because the numbers will change from day to day. You want hard numbers read the program updates presentation presented to the Board of Directors that report as of this date numbers.
Ah, thanks! Looks like they're having a meeting tomorrow.