Why only 3 tracks at Horse Shoe Curve?

Can anyone tell me who made the decision to remove the 4th track around HSC and what the reason was?

Conrail removed the 4th track in the 1980's. This was largely in part
due to L. Stanley Crane, the former Southern Railway CEO, who was
brought in to revive the remnants of the bankrupt carriers that formed
Conrail. This was a major streamlining and plant rationalization by abandoning and single tracking lines and branches that had excess capacity.

Funny how they never "rationalize" highways that have "excess capacity", but keep on widening them.

I guess we're lucky to have three tracks on Horseshoe Curve. The Main Line west of Harrisburg is down to two tracks from four, mostly.

And with today's JUMBO cars, the question arises if there is enough room to have a 4th track relaid? Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan the rail chiefs of the 60s, 70s and 80s who quickly dismantled the railroads as an easy and shortsighted step to meet bottom line goals of the day. The future was not in their future as far as they were concerned.

AFAIK, the center track was not realigned at Horseshoe Curve and there is sufficient room to reinstall the fourth track. (Corrections/clarifications welcome, of course.) However, in the locations where there are two tracks missing (off the curve), there is plenty of room to reinstall them.

Even with today's increasing car sizes clearances are good for four tracks?

Wasn't bi-directional CTC introduced on the remaining inside track on this section of the PRR when the 4th track was removed? That is, the 4 tracks were unidirectional as built by the PRR.

Do not confuse reverse signaling with CTC. Reverse signaling is referred to when a track or set of tracks is signaled for and can be operated in either direction between two interlocking or block stations. CTC is one or more tracks signaled in either direction and controled from a remote location by an operator or dispatcher. Fine line differences, I know, but precise definitions for safety and clarity.

Therefore, the four tracks built by the PRR were signaled for reverse traffic between block limit or interlocking towers. It became a CTC operation when the towers on the hill were eliminated and control of switches, crossovers, and traffic directions were handled by the train dispatcher(s) at Altoona. After the hardware, the operating rules in effect determined the operation.

Today's cars address increased capacity by being longer, higher, and stronger - but not wider. In most cases cars are essentially the same width they have been for decades.

But there is also the distance from the pivot point of a truck and the end of the knuckle to be dealt with. AT one time there were a lot of derailments going through short crossovers and tight curves; also there was "clipping" of adjacent track space by the ends of these cars. That would all have to be compensated for at places like Horseshoe, especially in putting back the 4th track. Wouldn't it?

The primary reasoning for putting 4 tracks around the Curve was to separate passenger traffic from freight traffic...Passenger traffic once boasted 40-50 passenger trains or more per day....bogging this much passenger traffic down behind freight traffic would have created tremendous delays, therefore passenger trains were separated as much as possible from freight traffic during the earlier 20th century. Adding a fourth track back in now would also necessitate adding at least a third track back in across the Middle division between Altoona and Harrisburg where now, except for the controlled siding between Altoona and CPGRAY near Tyrone, and the Controlled siding between CPCANNON and CPBANKS near Marysville, and other passing sidings, most of the old Middle Division is double track, so 4 tracks would still be funneling down to mostly a two track railroad East of Altoona.

Irish Chieftain wrote:Funny how they never "rationalize" highways that have "excess capacity", but keep on widening them.

That is done. I have personally narrowed two roadways from four lanes to two lanes with a center left turn lane. So don't say never Just doesn't happen too often. And most times by the time a highway is widened or built it is already at capacity.

I haven't been to the curve in over 10 years, but railfanned it quite a few times in the mid 1980's. This is when you could sit on the rock outcrop next to the track just a little west of the curve opposite the park. At that time there were hour or more breaks in train movements up through the area, so the really was no need for a fourth track. I am sure that if traffic demands increase to the point of need, the fourth track would be reinstalled.

Another factor in having 4 tracks around the Curve at one time was the sheer volume of traffic...Somewhere around 150 movements a day around the Curve up into WW2 days...combining freight, passenger and light engine moves into that figure...Freights were much shorter in length than now however. There are published accounts that state that the last time that train movements averaged 100 a day around the Curve was in late 1975-or early 1976. Adding another track back in would require more than simply laying rails and ties....Interlockings, such as ALTO, SLOPE, and MG would have to be reconfigured to allow for the fourth track again along with interlockings on the West Slope. There is still a 4 track segment in place between Cresson and Gallitzin, easily photographable from the Rte 53 overpass so that segment would not require much rework though MO interlocking in Cresson would require some tweaking if a 4th track were to continue West down the West Slope beyond Cresson. Signaling would have to be added back in for the 4th track, along with switch heaters, and everything would have to be renumbered as the old track 4 is now Track 3. Everything on the Dispatcher's board would have to be reworked again and then there would be the additional costs of maintaining a fourth track....So the increase in business and traffic would have to be substantial enough for the railroad to invest in all the capital expense.

cjvrr wrote:

Irish Chieftain wrote:Funny how they never "rationalize" highways that have "excess capacity", but keep on widening them.

That is done. I have personally narrowed two roadways from four lanes to two lanes with a center left turn lane. So don't say never Just doesn't happen too often. And most times by the time a highway is widened or built it is already at capacity.

Thanks for reminding me; I should have thought of what was done to NJ State Route 439 (Elmora Avenue) in Elizabeth NJ since I left in 2002. I stand corrected…