Why is there no direct Toronto to Quebec City service?

NS VIA FAN wrote:

jp1822 wrote:If we are talking Windsor to Quebec City - via Toronto and Montrel - is this potentially a route that could support an overnight train, with the majority of the overnight portion being between Toronto and Montreal - much like during the days of when the Enterprise operated? .

The Enterprise was discontinued about 5 years ago and it would be interesting to see the O&D stats on how many passengers conected through to Windsor or Quebec City. But I don't see how the market has changed any where an overnight train would now be successful. VIA's resources are better spent on increasing daytime services......the trains people want to ride.

When the track upgrades are complete, a four hour schedule will be available again. A train could leave Montreal or Toronto at 8pm and still be in the other city by midnight.

The main reason why I mention the "overnight service" from Montreal to Toronto is so it could sort of allow some to sleep while the train is still "moving people along" to their end points – IF in fact VIA’s looking for a train to traverse the entire “eastern corridor” between Quebec City and Windsor without any transfers. Not sure if a through day train from Quebec City to Windsor would be completely marketable due to the length involved. It works on northern Quebec routes because there's no other choice than one tri-weekly train per week!

If you had a train depart from Quebec City around 8 p.m., then be in position so it could depart Montreal at 11:30 p.m. and then arrive into Toronto at 6:30 a.m. and out by 7:00 a.m. it could be in Windsor by 11:00 a.m.

Again, this would still assume there would be a two hour layover somewhere between Montreal and Toronto in order to allow passenger friendly arrival/departure times from Montreal or Toronto. And if passengers between Montreal and Quebec City; or Toronto and Windsor; needed to get on/off at intermediate points between Toronto and Montreal, they would resort to a day train that would necessitate a transfer at Toronto/Montreal.

I don't think the Enterprise was implemented right the first time around, but it would be interesting to see what the connections were (if any) at Montreal and Toronto, aside from the Canadian at Toronto. Such a train would traverse the entire "eastern" corridor but be more advantagous to people looking to get through service between Quebec City - Montreal and Toronto - Windsor.

Could Ottawa be thrown into the schedule, thus perhaps avoiding the two hour layover if traveling just between Montreal and Toronto?

I like your idea!
Then have the train leave Windsor on # 78 schedule and layover in Toronto for roughly 1 hour and leave at 23:30 and arrive in Montreal at 06:30 and leave at 07:00. and arrive in Quebec city between 10:30 and 11:00?
I know servicing the train would be trouble as Windsor and Qeubec City wouldn't be able to it.
Maybe they could just run it from Montreal to Windsor and have reasonable sleeper fares this time! They could even try to sell unsold rooms like Amtrak does on its trains, because Via WOULDN'T OR COUNDN'T BE BOTHERED before and would rather run half empty sleepers!

jp1822 wrote:

NS VIA FAN wrote:

jp1822 wrote:If we are talking Windsor to Quebec City - via Toronto and Montrel - is this potentially a route that could support an overnight train, with the majority of the overnight portion being between Toronto and Montreal - much like during the days of when the Enterprise operated? .

The Enterprise was discontinued about 5 years ago and it would be interesting to see the O&D stats on how many passengers conected through to Windsor or Quebec City. But I don't see how the market has changed any where an overnight train would now be successful. VIA's resources are better spent on increasing daytime services......the trains people want to ride.

When the track upgrades are complete, a four hour schedule will be available again. A train could leave Montreal or Toronto at 8pm and still be in the other city by midnight.

The main reason why I mention the "overnight service" from Montreal to Toronto is so it could sort of allow some to sleep while the train is still "moving people along" to their end points – IF in fact VIA’s looking for a train to traverse the entire “eastern corridor” between Quebec City and Windsor without any transfers. Not sure if a through day train from Quebec City to Windsor would be completely marketable due to the length involved. It works on northern Quebec routes because there's no other choice than one tri-weekly train per week!

If you had a train depart from Quebec City around 8 p.m., then be in position so it could depart Montreal at 11:30 p.m. and then arrive into Toronto at 6:30 a.m. and out by 7:00 a.m. it could be in Windsor by 11:00 a.m.

Again, this would still assume there would be a two hour layover somewhere between Montreal and Toronto in order to allow passenger friendly arrival/departure times from Montreal or Toronto. And if passengers between Montreal and Quebec City; or Toronto and Windsor; needed to get on/off at intermediate points between Toronto and Montreal, they would resort to a day train that would necessitate a transfer at Toronto/Montreal.

I don't think the Enterprise was implemented right the first time around, but it would be interesting to see what the connections were (if any) at Montreal and Toronto, aside from the Canadian at Toronto. Such a train would traverse the entire "eastern" corridor but be more advantagous to people looking to get through service between Quebec City - Montreal and Toronto - Windsor.

Could Ottawa be thrown into the schedule, thus perhaps avoiding the two hour layover if traveling just between Montreal and Toronto?

I too am in favor of a overnight return of train service from Toronto to Montreal however I do Not believe the through train will be the way to do it. VIA has tried the overnight run before on the Enterprise it failed due to numerous reasons. one major draw back was no sleeper and the padding of 2+ hrs sitting in Kingston. When the 4 hr schedule returns overnight form Toronto to Montreal would be better as a early morning train for the most part. However as it goes the 1 train 1 ticket idea wont be in the thinking pot until after renaissance cars are running to Windsor. Its my understanding form my sources that the first segment will be to adjust equipment and shorten layovers in the corridor scheduled, it will take place in 2010. The already through trains we mentioned earlier will be the first to get the Renaissance Equipment, currently LRC cars usually do this run. and the 1 hr layover in Toronto will be adjusted to 30 min. Coinciding the first part of the pilot program a through train from Windsor to Montreal and vice versa. The details on if that train will continue to Quebec city is not known. Due to timing of departures I believe that train will remain as-is and a new train will grace the daytime timetable (or replace others where needed). when that will be is any ones guess?

buddah wrote:Its my understanding form my sources that the first segment will be to adjust equipment and shorten layovers in the corridor scheduled, it will take place in 2010. The already through trains we mentioned earlier will be the first to get the Renaissance Equipment, currently LRC cars usually do this run. and the 1 hr layover in Toronto will be adjusted to 30 min. Coinciding the first part of the pilot program a through train from Windsor to Montreal and vice versa. The details on if that train will continue to Quebec city is not known. Due to timing of departures I believe that train will remain as-is and a new train will grace the daytime timetable (or replace others where needed). when that will be is any ones guess?

I'm sorry, I fail to see how a train from Windsor to Montreal addresses the original poster's question, "Why is there no direct Toronto to Quebec City service?"
Note: The OP didn't ask why there is no direct Windsor to Quebec City service.

So what is realistic services? That depends mostly upon time and distance.
From Yahoo maps:
The distances for each leg and estimate elapse time assuming an average of 50 mph:
Quebec City to Montreal > 157 miles > 3 hrs 10 mins
Montreal to Ottawa > 124 miles > 2 hrs 30 mins
Ottawa to Toronto > 282 miles > 5 hrs 40 mins
Toronto to Windsor > 245 miles > 4 hrs 55 mins

The total elapse time for various segments (not including layover times at stations):
Windsor to Ottawa > 10 hrs 35 mins
Windsor to Montreal > 13 hrs 5 mins
Windsor to Quebec City > 16 hrs 15 mins
Quebec City to Ottawa > 5 hrs 40 mins
Quebec City to Toronto > 11 hrs 20 mins
Quebec City to Windsor > 16 hrs 15 mins

An Ottawa to Quebec City through "day" train at Montreal Central makes the most sense to me, more so than a Toronto to Quebec City through "day" train. An 11 and a half hour train ride is very long and I would welcome a rest stop at Montreal Central. Of course, an "overnight" train 11 and a half hours long would be okay in a sleeper with on the train dining services. But does Via have enough sleeper and diners available to make this overnight train work? I don't think so......

electricron wrote:

buddah wrote:Its my understanding form my sources that the first segment will be to adjust equipment and shorten layovers in the corridor scheduled, it will take place in 2010. The already through trains we mentioned earlier will be the first to get the Renaissance Equipment, currently LRC cars usually do this run. and the 1 hr layover in Toronto will be adjusted to 30 min. Coinciding the first part of the pilot program a through train from Windsor to Montreal and vice versa. The details on if that train will continue to Quebec city is not known. Due to timing of departures I believe that train will remain as-is and a new train will grace the daytime timetable (or replace others where needed). when that will be is any ones guess?

I'm sorry, I fail to see how a train from Windsor to Montreal addresses the original poster's question, "Why is there no direct Toronto to Quebec City service?"
Note: The OP didn't ask why there is no direct Windsor to Quebec City service.

So what is realistic services? That depends mostly upon time and distance.
From Yahoo maps:
The distances for each leg and estimate elapse time assuming an average of 50 mph:
Quebec City to Montreal > 157 miles > 3 hrs 10 mins
Montreal to Ottawa > 124 miles > 2 hrs 30 mins
Ottawa to Toronto > 282 miles > 5 hrs 40 mins
Toronto to Windsor > 245 miles > 4 hrs 55 mins

The total elapse time for various segments (not including layover times at stations):
Windsor to Ottawa > 10 hrs 35 mins
Windsor to Montreal > 13 hrs 5 mins
Windsor to Quebec City > 16 hrs 15 mins
Quebec City to Ottawa > 5 hrs 40 mins
Quebec City to Toronto > 11 hrs 20 mins
Quebec City to Windsor > 16 hrs 15 mins

An Ottawa to Quebec City through "day" train at Montreal Central makes the most sense to me, more so than a Toronto to Quebec City through "day" train. An 11 and a half hour train ride is very long and I would welcome a rest stop at Montreal Central. Of course, an "overnight" train 11 and a half hours long would be okay in a sleeper with on the train dining services. But does Via have enough sleeper and diners available to make this overnight train work? I don't think so......

I would agree that this topic has "strayed from the original post." My posts continued on what was presented in the forum.

However, for "realistic times and distances" one must look at the schedule of such trains, as I did in putting together one of my posts.

Does VIA have enough sleepers and diners available to make this overnight train work? Yes/No. It could if it completed the remaining Renaissance shells in storage at Thunder Bay. It could if it went back to having the Canadian just have three train sets rather than four in its pool. It could if it overhauled and winterized the Northern Spirit sleeping cars sitting in storage (essentially). So there's variables around this. It's amazing the the Ocean, Canadian, and Chaleur once operated with just Manor and Chateau sleepers at one time. With the Ocean's sleepers given to the Canadian (and the Ocean did not operate with a skimpy train set likey the Chaleur), the Canadian now has a lot more flexibility in running sleepers in consists let alone carving out another train set for services (i.e. a fourth train set). But if VIA ever wanted to expand overnight service - as it stands today - it may have some problems once again.

electricron wrote:I'm sorry, I fail to see how a train from Windsor to Montreal addresses the original poster's question, "Why is there no direct Toronto to Quebec City service?"
Note: The OP didn't ask why there is no direct Windsor to Quebec City service.
An Ottawa to Quebec City through "day" train at Montreal Central makes the most sense to me, more so than a Toronto to Quebec City through "day" train. An 11 and a half hour train ride is very long and I would welcome a rest stop at Montreal Central. Of course, an "overnight" train 11 and a half hours long would be okay in a sleeper with on the train dining services. But does Via have enough sleeper and diners available to make this overnight train work? I don't think so......

I was addressing what will be happening @ VIA rail in the near future at the poster was asking on info from Toronto- Quebec I was informing the Board that first Windsor-Montreal is on the table. Ottawa- Quebec was tried years ago as a connecting service in Montreal Im told when VIA first started operations, what happened to cancel it Im not sure, however it does not look like that route is in the pot for reconsideration. Also Electricron if 11 and 1/2 hours is too long for you Id suggest you fly. VIA rail in many ways mimics Amtrak, 12 hrs is all the average on certain trips. For example in our era....

NYC to Toronto...... 12 1/2 hrs ( Maple leaf)
NYC to Montreal.... 11 hrs (Adirondack)
Chicago to Toronto.... 12 hrs ( RETIRED International)
None of which had or has sleeper service. 3 trains hit at least 4 semi major cities in the route in 12 hrs. VIA I believe is looking at the same concept. (Windsor-London-Toronto-Kingston-Montreal-Quebec City)

jp1822 wrote: However, for "realistic times and distances" one must look at the schedule of such trains, as I did in putting together one of my posts.
Does VIA have enough sleepers and diners available to make this overnight train work? Yes/No.
It could if it completed the remaining Renaissance shells in storage at Thunder Bay.
It could if it went back to having the Canadian just have three train sets rather than four in its pool.
if VIA ever wanted to expand overnight service - as it stands today - it may have some problems once again.

JP you are correct, Electricron one can not take into account travel speed and millage from there own standpoint, one must take in the current time table and padding in the schedule , to come out with correct travel times.
1 No
2 VIA could have enough sleepers/ diner cars if they wanted to finish off the stored renaissance cars shells however there slated for the scrap pile ( see previous topic in the forum)
3 The Canadian equipment will stay as is for back up and replacement purposes, VIA was running thin on rolling stock for emergencies and I don't think they intend to resume that option again.
4 I believe that to be correct.

The topic may have strayed at bit, however I did in part answer the post original question, direct service from Toronto to Quebec city? NO. Do I know why not currently? NO. However I do know a train that provides one seat service from Toronto- to Quebec city is on the horizon although it will be via Windsor as well ( VIA camp gave estimation bets of 2012).