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  • Why did the B&M Northern Line fail?

  • Discussion relating to the pre-1983 B&M and MEC railroads. For current operations, please see the Pan Am Railways Forum.
Discussion relating to the pre-1983 B&M and MEC railroads. For current operations, please see the Pan Am Railways Forum.

Moderator: MEC407

 #481310  by Noel Weaver
 
I was in WRJ one day in the 1970's or early 1980's when a train came
into the yard off the Northern Line. It consisted of a GP-7, one box car
and a caboose. It was on a Thursday and later I found out that a local
freight at that time was operating one day a week, Thursdays from
Concord to WRJ and return.
Got a slide of this move in the B&M yard at WRJ.
Hard to believe that this line at one time was fully signaled and CTC
operated with 60 MPH for passenger trains of which there were several
every day in each direction.
Noel Weaver

 #481453  by Jo Jo Kracko
 
Hindsight is 20/20.. At that time, giving up the Northern was probably the right thing to do considering how strapped the B & M was at the time.. Nobody probably saw the opportunity of restoring passenger service to Boston and wherever points north. If having a east-west connection is so important, then why is the only link between St. J and Whitefield out of service and has been for about 8 years now ?

 #481623  by b&m 1566
 
Jo Jo Kracko wrote:Hindsight is 20/20.. At that time, giving up the Northern was probably the right thing to do considering how strapped the B & M was at the time.. Nobody probably saw the opportunity of restoring passenger service to Boston and wherever points north. If having a east-west connection is so important, then why is the only link between St. J and Whitefield out of service and has been for about 8 years now ?
St. J to Whitefield??? That's further north than the Northern. As far as I know St. J to Whitefield (after 1984) was for local traffic only and run through service was moved to the north on the old Grand Trunk line.

 #481629  by Jo Jo Kracko
 
I'm well aware of the locations of the old Northern and the Mountain Division line between St. Jay and Whitefield.. My point is that, that part of the Mountain Division between St. Jay and Whitefield are roughly the only sets of East-West tracks left in NNE.. And that section of track has been out-of-service for about 8 years, and no one seems to be beating the doors down to reactivate that section.. About the Northern, I'd be a regular customer is there was ever passenger service from White River Jct to Boston.. That would be a treat !

 #481684  by Noel Weaver
 
Jo Jo Kracko wrote:I'm well aware of the locations of the old Northern and the Mountain Division line between St. Jay and Whitefield.. My point is that, that part of the Mountain Division between St. Jay and Whitefield are roughly the only sets of East-West tracks left in NNE.. And that section of track has been out-of-service for about 8 years, and no one seems to be beating the doors down to reactivate that section.. About the Northern, I'd be a regular customer is there was ever passenger service from White River Jct to Boston.. That would be a treat !
The St. Lawrence and Atlantic can handle most of the business that the
MEC Mountain Subdivision handled and more efficiently too. You do not
need two or three railroad lines in a E and W direction in Northern New
England.
As for White River Junction - Boston passenger service, I suggest you
use the bus if you do not wish to drive this route, it will get you there
probably faster than a passenger train would today.
Noel Weaver

 #481695  by B&Mguy
 
Yeah, I guess there really isn't that great demand for East-West connections in Northern NE. I'd like to think that someday in the the future, this corridor might be able to serve a useful rail purpose again. I still think that Pam Am would benefit from having a connection to the Valley Line through NH, even if there is currently no business. Did any of the towns between Concord and Lebanon have any business that the train once served? (Canaan, Enfield, Danbury, etc...)

 #481788  by Jo Jo Kracko
 
As for White River Junction - Boston passenger service, I suggest you
use the bus if you do not wish to drive this route, it will get you there
probably faster than a passenger train would today.
Noel Weaver
Nice Idea NOEL on the bus, but I think not.. Bus rides can be considered a form of turture sometimes.. If I can easily get to NYC by train from the Green Mountain State with a 5 hour ride, and the idea of picking up a train for Boston with the same ease is rather enticing.. When I drive to Boston, whichever way I go, I can eventually parallel one of three dead E/W routes, the Northern, the C & C, and the Cheshire.. If service is restored from Boston to Montreal, like they say.. "If they build it , they will come"...

 #481858  by TomNelligan
 
B&Mguy wrote:Did any of the towns between Concord and Lebanon have any business that the train once served? (Canaan, Enfield, Danbury, etc...)
Sure, if you go back far enough, as with any line in New England... coal dealers, feed distributors, lumber yards, all the usual small town stuff. But by the late 1960s the on-line business between Concord and Lebanon was minimal and by the late 1970s it was essentially nonexistant. As others have noted above, after the Boston-White River Junction road freights came off, all that was left at the end was a once-a-week local. That doesn't pay for the upkeep of 70 or so miles of track.

 #482056  by shadyjay
 
It has been said that both the E/W NNE rail routes are out of service or abandoned. However, the Northern is more of a NW/SE routing, and would go to service a much more populated area than the "Northeast Kingdom/Great North Woods" corridor. Concord, at one end of the Northern, White River Jct at the other end, with a thru route possible to Montreal and Boston. Comparing the western half of the Mountain Division with the Northern in terms of being e/w sleepy NNE routes is like comparing (a real original expression coming up) Apples and Oranges.

The passenger business possible between Concord and White River Jct would most likely outnumber the same business between St J and Whitefield (or even to Portland).

 #482079  by Jo Jo Kracko
 
I'm sure Boston to Montreal train passenger service would be viable, certainly points in Vermont and the Upper Valley to Boston would be even entertain more riders. Wasn't there some gov't funded study for all of this ? Not sure what the outcome was on that.. If the MBTA could revive some seriously dead rail lines on the south shore of Boston, who knows what may lie ahead for the future of the Northern.. If two state funded passenger trains from points in Vt to NYC can reasonably sustain itself, the a rail destination option to Boston could seem attractive.. It's the 'little railran' in me coming out.. :-D

 #482135  by jscola30
 
We had a lively conversation on the Amtrak forum of a Boston-Montreal Route.

 #482143  by Jo Jo Kracko
 
Thank you for the info on that...

 #482225  by SLR 393
 
For what its worth, the MDOT long term conceptual plan they were touting to anyone who would listen a while ago included Lewiston/Auburn to Monteal passenger service.....

 #490937  by NEWanderer
 
I know this is an old thread but I want to address a few things regarding the Northern Line and the associated high speed rail corridor:

History:
No matter what anyone says a train passed through the Northern Line in the summer of 1987. I stood on the ground in East Andover watching the engine haul a caboose and 3 gondolas full of ballast. This was during the final phase of installing AT&T's fiberoptic cable. The preceding year a dumptruck with flanges hauling a flat car with a backhoe on it could be seen regularly on the Northern Line. It appears that some of the last of the customers along the fairly rural stretch of the line were propane and home heating oil in Franklin, Potter Place, etc.--perhaps nothing to break even on.

Current issues:
The Boscawen and westward stretch of the line is currently owned by the State of NH. The terms of the purchase were for potential multi-use which includes the trail. The trail state is tentative and the NH Rail Plan clearly spells out that the trail is an interim condition. Recent interest in use of the Northern Line was expressed in the minutes of the NHRRA in 2007. PSNH reportedly expressed interest in coal delivery to Merrimack Station in Bow from the West via the Northen. New England Southern using connector service from Claremont Concord? The CCR apparently has more ambitions for Westboro Yard seen here:
http://www.thesignloft.com/railtechctr.htm
It appears that the City of Lebanon, partly due to one of their advisory committees and a certain city council member want to move the Claremont Concord and Eagle Leaf out of Westboro Yard to make way for the world's longest pile of stone dust. I think a more impressive model can be found here
http://www.railriders.net/esf/our_park.html


High Speed Rail:
Whether there is an existing track or not is probably irrelevant to high speed service since the right of way would require substantial revisions regardless and a new physical track would be needed. The first phase of the study established there would be ridership, but previous administrations in MA and NH backed out of Phase II.
 #543658  by jbvb
 
Two reasons that the Northern is torn up, where the MEC's Mountain Division still has rail: The Northern's rail was heavy enough that it had value as relay rail. IIRC, the Mountain Div. was most or all 85 lb. Second, the presence of the CV/NECR in White River Jct.; If a service-oriented railroad established a transload terminal in Concord, it would be much more competitve in eastern MA, NH and ME up to about Biddeford than Palmer or Lewiston Jct.