Who switched the Rochester Subway customers after 1957?

I've seen several pictures of railroad operations in the 60s on the former subway ROW in downtown Rochester (now 490). I've heard some of it was interchanges between the NYC and the LV. How did this work? Did NYC use the subway through the Broad Street bridge? Was this a busy connection? Is there any maps available that showed where everything went down there? Was the B&O involved, since they were in the neighborhood too?

Yes, part of I-490 is built in the old Subway bed, but no, there were no railroad operations in there in the 1960s. The entire Subway from South Avenue east was removed shortly after the Subway was shut down in 1957. Construction on the Eastern Expressway began as early as 1959.

The pictures you probably saw were the NYC switching the former RSB-LV interchange at Court Street and South Avenue... the NYC accessed the former Subway tracks via interchange ramp at Kent Street. B&O accessed the Subway via their interchange ramp behind Nick Tahou's (ex BR&P terminal) along Broad Street near the Oak Street Loop. To access the LV interchange, yes, the railroads would utilized the Broad Street bridge over the Genesee River.

Sometimes the NYC would switch the line, sometimes B&O. The city of Rochester drew up a contract after RTC quit the railroad business in 1957... the contract determined who would run the subway for freight based on carloadings in and out. Perhaps someone else could shed some light on the matter? I was always fuzzy on this. I dont think the LV provided crews or equipment, but I have seen the pictures of NYC equipment switching out the Subway...

check these pages out. Some historical images courtesy of Richard Pearson.

http://ritmrc.org/articles/rochesterrailhistory/nyc.asp

http://64.78.30.219/articles/railfannin ... tersubway/

-otto-

Otto, I'd have to disagree. The former subway did indeed serve customers past 1957 on part of what is now I-490. If you cross the river eastbound and go through the S-bend, on your right you will see concrete walls and old embankments from various sidings. This track was in use adjacent to the expressway until.......1970's???. Finally the track was removed and the expressway was widened. This only went a short way, not the whole way to Brighton, but a small segment of perhaps half to 3/4 of a mile did survive in use long after the subway was gone.

BR&P is correct. As you proceed on South Ave. past Rundel library to enter 490 East, there are two entrance ramps to do so: the first on the extreme left (a flyover) and the second on the extreme right (a newer "under and around"). The second uses the old single track ROW formerly used to access the few customers left along 490 around the Meigs/Averill street area. The customers were served into the 70's. The primary customer was a scrap yard who loaded outbound gons. NYC/PC switched the line using a single RS-1. When the line was pulled, the second entrance ramp was added and 490 went from 3 lanes to 4 with the fourth exiting at Goodman St. The poured concrete ramps are clearly visible, but not much else is left.

I stand corrected, and thank you. I had always assumed that the state (or whoever was responsible for constructing I-490) claimed the right of way immediately east of the river. I had always assumed that the right hand ramp from South Ave was the Subway bed. I read later that that ramp was intended for exntrance to I-390 South! The original plan for I-390 had it terminate at I-490 and Goodman Street. The highway design was reouted in the late 1970s as it would have destroyed a good portion of the Clinton Ave neighborhood.

Does anyone know how the subway was dismantled? Did they start in Brighton and work back towards the city? Did the highway open all at once, or in sections?

-otto-

I know I'm late with this but, I work with a couple conductors in Rochester, who used to switch the subway and tell some pretty good tales about it.

A really great book on the Rochester Subway was put out by the Rochester Chapter NRHS. My Father has a copy as he was lucky enough to ride the subway right before it closed down. I checked the Rochester NRHS website store and they don't seem to have it listed. It seems older and may be out of print. It has seom great photos and maps.

Brooks

By the way, is anyone familiar with the book 94 Years of Rochester Railways ? It says there are two voolumes, vol. 1 being sold out and vol.2 in print. Thanks

http://www.rochnrhs.org/rcnrhs_store.html

One minor correction, Otto - the almost-but-not-quite expressway you mention was in addition to (not replaced with) today's 390. The 390-590 split in Henrietta was planned as a four-way cloverleaf with the northern portion headed roughly parallel to Clinton Ave, crossing Elmwood, Highland and (again roughly) down Field St. to meet up with 490 right around the present day Goodman St. ramps. Houses on the south end of Field St. and along Broadway(?) near Alexander were demolished as part of this project before community uproar shut it down for good (thankfully). City maps published around that time show the route in dashed lines!

Hi Gang...The part of the subway where it goes underground behind Nick Tahous was used to move carloads of newsprint to Gannett until operations were relocated; thereby closing out the last chapter in subway use. Also I have 94 Years of Rochester Railways Vol. 2 written by William Gordon and it's pretty interesting; even covers the different bus lines. Too bad the city can't find a way to develope the remaining subway as an historical attraction since some of the stations; etc still exist around the Broad Street bridge. Guess the homeless would have to be displaced though...just a thought.

BR&P & 8222 thanks for the info. :D

I have always wondered out the track alignment wound through that area. I have often seen the concrete ramps you speak of and had assumed that it was a remant of an old subway ramp, but this defintely clears it up.

Thanks,

Looking at the grade of those ramps, it must have been fun switching in the winter while holding on to several cars. On the other hand, no need for a runaround, just set the car partway up one of those sidings and roll it by.

One correction, the subway crew used switchers - such as S-2's, and in the last few years EMD SW units. I don't recall an RS-1 ever going down there although I'm open to correction. If so, it was an isolated incident and not the normal assigned power.

The power was furnished by NYC/PC, but the crews rotated between NYC, LV, PRR and B&O. When it was an NYC crew, they sometimes brought the train to Goodman St yard with KS-4, the subway crew. When other railroads had the job, the NYC crew picked up the cars from the interchange near where the soccer stadium is supposed to be built, and brought them in.

The grade from Kent Street to the main line at CP34 was quite steep. The crew would assemble the train, often with the cars on the "Abandon", the track which went over to Otis Yard. When they had permission from the dispatcher, they would get a running start down from the Abandon and hope they made it onto the main. Sometimes they stalled and had to try again. More than once, they got hung up, unable to pull out and unable to shove back up the Abandon. In those cases they usually had to cut part of the train and set it on Track 4 west of CP34, then go get the rest.

I've heard this before about the PRR providing a crew but I have never found any proof of it. I've talked to about 15 Rochester Division employees and no has mentioned it.

I think it was just between the NYC/B&O/LV; those railroads that had direct connections to the subway already.

Charles

Back in the late 70's 490(near Goodman)and those ramps was not as wide. The Goodman ramp lane was shorter and the track ran just over the curb along 490. The NRHS was offered the track which was being scrapped hastily due to the road expansion. This formed the start of the yard tracks at the OATKA depot. I believe that the Xway was expanded again in the 80's near Goodman. The NRHS or the NYMOT salvaged the ramped sidings later as they were privately owned. I memory serves me there were 2 ramps and a switchback.

You know how it goes. Just as you open your mouth, you'll be proved wrong.

Thanks to my friend David, a long time railroader.........

The PRR did in fact switch the subway, along with the other railroads in the city. The switching was based on the number of carloads a railroad had for the subway. The NYC had the bulk of carloads for the subway and their crews switched the subway the most often. I can't speak for carload numbers for the rest of the railroads but the PRR had enough carloads to have to provide a crew about 30 days a year. So you could say the PRR's carloads were about 1/12 of the carloads based on NYC/PRR/B&O/Erie/LV total. Of course, after the NYC/PRR merger, the PRR job was merged into the NYC job.

If a railroad failed to bid to cover their part job, the railroad was not allowed to bid in the future on the subway job. It would be interesting to find out if any railroad stopped bidding so they didn't have to work the subway anymore.

One last thing. The Rochester Subway book talks about the PRR leaving cars for the subway at Genesee Junction for the NYC. I have also heard stories of the PRR leaving cars for the Erie near Flint St. The Erie would take the cars to the LV by Elmwood Ave thence on the LV to the subway.

This has been a fascinating thread. I'd like to hear more.

As far as I know the only railroad which did not furnish subway crews was the Erie.

One thing I have never heard discussed much is how the crews managed to breath in the underground portions of the subway, when that old ALCO switcher had been belching exhaust for a while. Today's environmentally-aware folks would have a coronary!