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  • Who has freight rights on the Needham line?

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England

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 #1324942  by Tracer
 
There is one warehouse with a siding left(switch to the main is removed) near the home depot in West Roxbury. Just curious who would serve this in the one in a million chance they ever decided to resume rail service. Thanks
 #1324948  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Tracer wrote:There is one warehouse with a siding left(switch to the main is removed) near the home depot in West Roxbury. Just curious who would serve this in the one in a million chance they ever decided to resume rail service. Thanks
Nobody. Bay Colony abandoned its rights to Newton a couple years ago, and inbound of Needham Jct. inside City of Boston hasn't had any customers since at least the late 1980's. The only freight that's traveled through West Roxbury in the last 25 years were special carloads of excavated Big Dig fill that moved regularly for a few years in the late-90's during that phase of the project, and took the NEC + Needham as a more direct route out of town than the usual preferred route of Dorchester Branch + Franklin Line.

From recent Street View pics it looks like the warehouse on Rivermoor St. that the derelict siding runs into is vacant and up for sale. ("96,000 Sq. Ft...Will Subdivide", sez the roadsign sign at the intersection of Rivermoor, Gardner, and the Home Depot parking lot).
 #1325058  by BostonUrbEx
 
What was the maximum extent of Bay Colony's rights? Did they obtain those rights from one outright purchase from CSX? Or were the obtained from the Conrail break up?

Also, what happens if a customer seeks service on a line where no one has freight rights? Do they go to the state and tell the state to open up bidding for rights or something?
 #1325080  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
BostonUrbEx wrote:What was the maximum extent of Bay Colony's rights? Did they obtain those rights from one outright purchase from CSX? Or were the obtained from the Conrail break up?

Also, what happens if a customer seeks service on a line where no one has freight rights? Do they go to the state and tell the state to open up bidding for rights or something?
Bay Colony took over Newton-Millis and whatever remained on the outskirts of Boston from Conrail in 1982, same year it picked up the Cape, Dean St. Industrial in Taunton, Wattupa Branch, Plymouth Line, Greenbush Line (then still active to the military spur in Cohasset), Hanover Branch, and Framingham & Lowell north of South Sudbury. Just a pu-pu platter of low-margin stuff Conrail wanted to get rid of. I know rights never extended further into Boston, because the Needham Line was out-of-service to all traffic inbound to Forest Hills when the SW Corridor was being blown up and Conrail NEC rights were sliced off at Hyde Park (last customers on the south end) and Back Bay (Worcester side used for reaching Southie and the Boston Herald siding out of Beacon Park). Bay Colony did get a lot of outsource work rebuilding the Needham Line in 1986 in the outer neighborhoods when they were preparing for resumption of commuter rail service, simply because the SW Corridor wasn't finished yet and BCLR had the only active access point from Medfield. Not sure when rights east of Needham Jct. were abandoned. Probably when this same spur went dead. If it was even all that alive by the time Conrail got out in '82.

The Big Dig landfill moves were handled by BCLR, but those were special moves on a special routing forced by all the construction around the ex-South Station drawbridges.


If there's freight biz to be had on a line that has no freight rights or perpetual-rights freight squatters, it's an open bid. BCLR's contract for the Cape lines and Dean St. Industrial was on a 25-year MassDOT contract, so when Mass Coastal stole it away from them in 2007 it stole it away fair-and-square on an open bid. The MBTA as line owner can say no to doling out a new freight contract if there's no pre-existing rights or preemptions; that's their right as line owner. They definitely would say no on the Needham Line now that the Medfield Jct.-Needham Jct. segment fell to the NIMBY trojan horse trail, because they have good reason for not letting freight through the SW Corridor tunnel and Forest Hills. And they might say no on the Eastern Route + Branches north of Beverly Draw where Guilford didn't even retain squatters' rights, since the screaming and pitchforks from the locals wouldn't be outweighed by the business potential of a shortline bottled up at the drawbridge by PAR. Ditto Greenbush, which has even less on-line potential than Newburyport/Rockport for even worse NIMBY's.

But if, say, CSX offloaded the Old Colony south of Braintree Yard to Mass Coastal and MC wanted to open-bid on the Plymouth Line because it had interested customers (not too far-fetched)...that they'd probably be fine with (and CSX fine with since MC's still landlocked and it's more business to interchange). As would slight extension of MC's Dean St. rights up into Raynham after South Coast Rail reconnected the gap if they happened to find an interested customer south of the swamp (but probably not through the swamp because there's definitely no potential in Easton, and CSX still serves Stoughton-north with no possible reason to ever want to interchange with them in that area vs. at a proper yard like Braintree or Middleboro).

And...that's it. There are no other active or embargoed/OOS state-owned lines that are rights-less. CSX and PAR have their perpetual rights on the parts of the NEC, inner Fitchburg, and inner Reading that see no regularly-scheduled freight, as well as squatter's rights on inactive Track 61, Mystic Wharf Branch, and East Boston Branch. And likewise MC on the OOS part of the Fall River Branch to the tank farm at the state line. Everything else has been landbanked and expunged in the form of 99-year leases to rail trail groups ranging from the credible to the outright scammy.
 #1329885  by boatsmate
 
Drove by the Bridge over 128 in Needham on Monday, and demo is almost complete. all the rail and ties have been removed and the concrete between the bridge abutments has been bust up and is being made ready to remove the spans. I will update more next week when I drive by there again
 #1329908  by Cosmo
 
boatsmate wrote:Drove by the Bridge over 128 in Needham on Monday, and demo is almost complete. all the rail and ties have been removed and the concrete between the bridge abutments has been bust up and is being made ready to remove the spans. I will update more next week when I drive by there again
Try and get pics if you can. that's part of my old stomping grounds. ;-)
 #1329948  by Noel Weaver
 
I am not sure just what the situation is in this case but often there is no freight service simply because there is no demand for service, in other words there are no freight customers on a portion of the line in question. In some cases a railroad has freight rights that haven't been used in a long period of time. An example of this is the New Canaan Branch which as far as I know CSX still has the freight rights on this short line (all 8 miles of it) but there are no longer any freight customers. One reason the freight railroad(s), CSX in this case, don't make a big fuss over it is because they merely serve the territory under a trackage rights agreement and it probably costs them little or nothing to retain the trackage rights just in case. There are a number of lines in the metro areas of the northeast where there is passenger service but no freight service.
Noel Weaver
 #1330012  by BandA
 
Noel Weaver wrote:I am not sure just what the situation is in this case but often there is no freight service simply because there is no demand for service, in other words there are no freight customers on a portion of the line in question. In some cases a railroad has freight rights that haven't been used in a long period of time. An example of this is the New Canaan Branch which as far as I know CSX still has the freight rights on this short line (all 8 miles of it) but there are no longer any freight customers. One reason the freight railroad(s), CSX in this case, don't make a big fuss over it is because they merely serve the territory under a trackage rights agreement and it probably costs them little or nothing to retain the trackage rights just in case. There are a number of lines in the metro areas of the northeast where there is passenger service but no freight service.
Noel Weaver
If a freight railroad has trackage or freight rights, and the rail is publicly owned, and for some reason they want a different railroad to provide freight service, can they take the freight/trackage rights by eminent domain? If the rights haven't been exercised in years they would have a low value. This would allow paper barriers and other vestiges to be extinguished. Not really on-topic for the Needham line, but something I'm curious about.
 #1330026  by ExCon90
 
One problem would be what happens at the junction with the main line. Using the New Canaan branch as an example, if the state awarded rights over to the branch to a startup railroad, how does the traffic get past Stamford? Whichever Class I or Regional might have rights over the main line, the shipper would have to deal with that railroad, so it's not obvious what the point would be in awarding rights over the branch to a new entity.
 #1330048  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Noel Weaver wrote:I am not sure just what the situation is in this case but often there is no freight service simply because there is no demand for service, in other words there are no freight customers on a portion of the line in question. In some cases a railroad has freight rights that haven't been used in a long period of time. An example of this is the New Canaan Branch which as far as I know CSX still has the freight rights on this short line (all 8 miles of it) but there are no longer any freight customers. One reason the freight railroad(s), CSX in this case, don't make a big fuss over it is because they merely serve the territory under a trackage rights agreement and it probably costs them little or nothing to retain the trackage rights just in case. There are a number of lines in the metro areas of the northeast where there is passenger service but no freight service.
Noel Weaver
There are no freight trackage rights on Needham anymore. Bay Colony RR was the last operator--Medfield Jct. to Needham Jct. and end of the line on the Needham Branch in Newton. They formally filed an STB docket for abandonment of all freight rights in 2011. Forest Hills to Needham Jct. had its rights extinguished by BCLR much earlier.
BandA wrote:If a freight railroad has trackage or freight rights, and the rail is publicly owned, and for some reason they want a different railroad to provide freight service, can they take the freight/trackage rights by eminent domain? If the rights haven't been exercised in years they would have a low value. This would allow paper barriers and other vestiges to be extinguished. Not really on-topic for the Needham line, but something I'm curious about.
Depends on the letter of the trackage rights agreement. In all of these recent line sales to MassDOT by CSX and Pan Am the STB filings spell out that the legacy freight rights are permanent and irrevocable unless the freight carrier outright chooses to dish off the rights. Though there are performance clauses everyone has to abide by. There's no way to 'evict' the freight carrier with perpetual rights without adjudicating it with the STB, which is messy enough a legal filing that things would have to get unprecedentedly bad for that to ever be an option. Penn Central's and B&M's successors also have inherited rights from the big buy of northside and southside lines that MA made from bankrupt RR's in the mid-70's. So the only places the big boys do revoke their trackage rights are on freight-only state-owned lines with no passenger traffic, because there it is costing the freights maintenance money to keep the lines in active or OOS status. It doesn't, because of the terms of those 1970's bankruptcy sales, cost the successor RR's anything to not use their freight trackage rights when passenger traffic is paying for the line's day-to-day upkeep, so CSX and Pan Am are content to keep these perpetual holds.

The only cases where one of the "perpetual rights" carriers voluntarily gave up their rights on a passenger route was Conrail between Hyde Park and Back Bay for the Southwest Corridor reconstruction of the NEC back in the 1980's, and Guilford on the Eastern Route north of Salem. The latter a ploy by Guilford to take advantage of the Beverly drawbridge fire in 1984 and subsequent year-long closure for repairs to refuse service to its remaining freight customers north of the drawbridge when the line reopened.


Now, the rules are different when the freight trackage rights get dished off to another carrier. MassDOT has much more control over the South Coast lines that CSX turned over to Mass Coastal. And the Cape Cod lines that Conrail got rid of in the early-80's are on a renewable trackage rights contract, which is how Mass Coastal ended up displacing Bay Colony on the Cape. In those cases the terms of the original public sale agreements are no longer in effect because the carrier that made the sale got out of town and the state brokered the transfer of rights, drafting new trackage rights agreements in the process. It's still, however, very difficult to 'fire' a freight carrier because the feds take interstate commerce very seriously.
 #1330050  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Bill Reidy wrote:The bridge over Route 128 is gone. It was there yesterday afternoon when I drove to Maine. It was gone on my trip home early this evening. I assume it was taken out overnight last night.

The side abutments are do to be rebuilt to fit a 2-track rail bridge should one be needed in the future, and the new median on the widened highway will have a 'fat' stretch for pouring new center supports at a later date. There just won't be a new deck. Abandonment filing came after MassHighway's contractors designed a complete replacement span, so rather than revise the plans they're just omitting the deck. Side abutments hold up the hillside embankment, so it was cleaner to just provision the bridge rather than do all sorts of design changes for re-grading the embankment.

So at least it's all protected. Need rail: plop down a rail deck on pre-existing abutments...that's it.
 #1330053  by Cosmo
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:
So at least it's all protected. Need rail: plop down a rail deck on pre-existing abutments...that's it.
Well, theoretically at least... but I suppose it's better than "never." :wink: