What Will MARC Do (WWMD) for Electrics on the Penn Line? - Frederick Douglass Tunnel

Before starting this thread, I did a Google Search to see if this specific topic was covered, and I didn't find anything explicitly on this, so here we go. To that point, if I missed something and the mods want to merge this with an pre-existing thread, go ahead.

I read about the new Frederick Douglass Tunnel on the NEC in Baltimore. When it's built, it appears diesel locomotives will be prohibited, at least for revenue service.

Read here -> https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/proj ... -2023.pdf
Just do ctrl+f and type in "Will MARC" to find it faster. It's #5 under "Future Operations."

So, that made me wonder, where is MARC getting electric locomotives from? The Hippos (HHP-8s) don't seem to be an option, as Amtrak maintained them and I think their support of that has finished. MARC typically uses diesel locomotives on the Penn Line. To my understanding, it's because they want to save money (Amtrak's electric fees) and it's easier to maintain an all diesel fleet. It also allows for more flexibility as you can have any single consist move from one line to another. It's just what I read on the internet, as I'm an outsider (non railroad employee).

Now, I heard two possible solutions for MARC obtaining electric locomotives for the Penn Line:
1. Using surplus Amtrak ACS-64 locomotives. A MARC engineer told me this during an in-person conversation. However his tone came across hypothetical, which is understandable given it's still up in the air. He was like "maybe they'll do this." Given how MARC has used Amtrak's ACS-64s (in the past AEM7s) on occasion, this doesn't seem too far fetched in my opinion.

Examples of MARC using ACS-64s
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMQIeKYq4Og
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKx4O3Xl9OM

2. SEPTA "donating" a number of their ACS-64 locomotives. Now, this caught me off guard. I heard this from an Amtrak employee. I was at Trenton and an Amtrak train stopped adjacent to one of SEPTA's ACS-64s. The Amtrak guy (rather loud voice, I was at least 6 feet away) pointed to the SEPtA Sprinter and told his partner "SEPTA's supposed to give some of those to MARC, because they only use a few of them." I remember MARC loaning SEPTA a number of their coaches during SEPTA's issue with the Silverliner Vs in 2016.

Examples of SEPTA using MARC Equipment
- (With an Amtrak ACS-64) -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARbmX_v4fH4
- (With an Amtrak ACS-64) -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyhVtxXr8QY

Quick extra from 2019 of a SEPTA ACS-64 pulling MARC Coaches -> http://www.trainweb.org/rpotw/RPOTW191117.htm

Now, I don't work for a railroad, and I know my sources sound like "trust me bro." With that being said, is there any validity to either of those?

I know we're a ways off from the tunnel being built & operational. But, it's something worth considering? What Will MARC do?

Almost like how some would ask "WWJD?" depending on the circumstance . Lighthearted jokes aside, if anyone with more info could chime in I'd appreciate it.

Amtrak's ACS-64s seem like a plausible direction. The Airo trainsets will replace them on everything except LD trains on the Corridor.

Ten years ago I actually e-mailed the MTA and asked them why the Penn Line services on weekends were not powered by electric locomotives, and the answers I was given at the time were:

- The yard at Martin State Airport is not electrified, so electric locos can’t bring a set into service or take it out of service.
- A Noise Abatement Order at Baltimore Penn station resulted in a prohibition against shunting the sets stabled there overnight, so it was not possible to use electric locos there either.

I have also read that the Penn-Camden Connector will open up opportunities for use of electric locos because it will allow for a far more rapid shuffle of rolling stock between the Penn Line and the Camden Line, as the latter is the route that has access to Riverside Yard, where most of the heavy maintenance on MARC rolling stock takes place.

I can’t speak to any issues with electricity fees, but every time I see two diesel locos pushing or pulling a MARC set on the Penn Line I can’t help but feel that Amtrak would rather see a single electric loco on that set instead, so that it can keep time and get out of the way of the Amtrak services. Ideally, it would promote a certain degree of pragmatism and a willingness to work with the MTA…

TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Wed Dec 04, 2024 6:22 am Ten years ago I actually e-mailed the MTA and asked them why the Penn Line services on weekends were not powered by electric locomotives, and the answers I was given at the time were:

- The yard at Martin State Airport is not electrified, so electric locos can’t bring a set into service or take it out of service.e
- A Noise Abatement Order at Baltimore Penn station resulted in a prohibition against shunting the sets stabled there overnight, so it was not possible to use electric locos there either.

I have also read that the Penn-Camden Connector will open up opportunities for use of electric locos because it will allow for a far more rapid shuffle of rolling stock between the Penn Line and the Camden Line, as the latter is the route that has access to Riverside Yard, where most of the heavy maintenance on MARC rolling stock takes place.

I can’t speak to any issues with electricity fees, but every time I see two diesel locos pushing or pulling a MARC set on the Penn Line I can’t help but feel that Amtrak would rather see a single electric loco on that set instead, so that it can keep time and get out of the way of the Amtrak services. Ideally, it would promote a certain degree of pragmatism and a willingness to work with the MTA…

I was under the impression that wiring up (at least partially) Martins was in the plan.
The Camden connection Would go a long way to fixing this issue. Sadly, I don't see contracts for it going out anytime , soon.

NortheastTrainMan wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 10:11 pm 2. SEPTA "donating" a number of their ACS-64 locomotives. Now, this caught me off guard. I heard this from an Amtrak employee. I was at Trenton and an Amtrak train stopped adjacent to one of SEPTA's ACS-64s. The Amtrak guy (rather loud voice, I was at least 6 feet away) pointed to the SEPtA Sprinter and told his partner "SEPTA's supposed to give some of those to MARC, because they only use a few of them." I remember MARC loaning SEPTA a number of their coaches during SEPTA's issue with the Silverliner Vs in 2016.

i've heard the same, SEPTA 911 thru 915 are supposed to go to MARC to replace the ageing (and failing) hippos, when this will happen is beyond me.

MARC getting Amtrak or SEPTA ACS-64s after the Airos arrive makes the most sense. There are also Alstom/Bombardier ALP-45DP that are currently used on NJT and Exo and which I believe are still in-production. (Someone correct me if I am wrong.)

There were a bunch of AEM-7s stored up in Rhode Island, but those were recently scrapped.

Shortline614 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 4:31 pm There are also Alstom/Bombardier ALP-45DP that are currently used on NJT and Exo and which I believe are still in-production. (Someone correct me if I am wrong.)

I forgot about the ALP-45DPs! Do they have enough fuel capacity and tractive effort for a one-way trip from D.C. to Martinsburg and back again? I have read anecdotal reports that their range is limited in diesel mode and that their high axle load frequently results in challenging performance away from the NEC. I don't know the gradient profile of the portions of the Cumberland Sub and the Met Sub used by the trains so I don't know how it compares to the NJT lines that the ALP-45DPs operate on.

Shortline614 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 4:31 pm MARC getting Amtrak or SEPTA ACS-64s after the Airos arrive makes the most sense. There are also Alstom/Bombardier ALP-45DP that are currently used on NJT and Exo and which I believe are still in-production. (Someone correct me if I am wrong.)

There were a bunch of AEM-7s stored up in Rhode Island, but those were recently scrapped.

some of those units were saved, most were scrapped, best to check the AEM-7 status thread to see what units survived.

TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 7:23 pm

Shortline614 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 4:31 pm There are also Alstom/Bombardier ALP-45DP that are currently used on NJT and Exo and which I believe are still in-production. (Someone correct me if I am wrong.)

I forgot about the ALP-45DPs! Do they have enough fuel capacity and tractive effort for a one-way trip from D.C. to Martinsburg and back again? I have read anecdotal reports that their range is limited in diesel mode and that their high axle load frequently results in challenging performance away from the NEC. I don't know the gradient profile of the portions of the Cumberland Sub and the Met Sub used by the trains so I don't know how it compares to the NJT lines that the ALP-45DPs operate on.

If anything, those would be used on penn line to Alx run-through.
I think they'd be too underpowered for the Met.

The thing I would say is: Can the SC-44's that MARC has be adapted to be powered over the electrics?

I ask this because I know that MARC trainsets go everywhere. I would find the CSX dispatch order sheets from a Brunswick line train for that day on the north-bound Penn line every so often, so it's likely the Brunswick line set wasn't sitting around and instead being used for a few round trips on the Penn line before going back to Brunswick that night.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 8:46 pm The thing I would say is: Can the SC-44's that MARC has be adapted to be powered over the electrics?

I ask this because I know that MARC trainsets go everywhere. I would find the CSX dispatch order sheets from a Brunswick line train for that day on the north-bound Penn line every so often, so it's likely the Brunswick line set wasn't sitting around and instead being used for a few round trips on the Penn line before going back to Brunswick that night.

So, you mean either converting sc44 into dual modes, or marc take the pantograph off the hippos, and mount on marc2 cars with a transformer, and pair with a sc44.

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 9:44 pm So, you mean either converting sc44 into dual modes, or marc take the pantograph off the hippos, and mount on marc2 cars with a transformer, and pair with a sc44.

Likely making the SC-44's dual mode (diesel/caternary). The MARC II's are at most 40 years old at this time (Dating back to 1985), so I can't really see an extensive change-over only to replace them in 10 years, and likely going 100% bi-level.

The reason I'm asking is that I can't see MARC paying for new electrics that only get used on one line. MARC bought the SC-44's to replace the AEM-7's. I don't see MARC getting more engines if they can't run them on all the lines, so I'm thinking they'll get dual-modes to replace the MP36's and the HHP-8's.

Wow! This thread proved to be a more fruitful discussion than I initially thought it would be.
Thanks to all for chiming in. I'll address a few things.

@Halgoonta Interesting, looks like there might be some truth to SEPTA donating some Sprinters. Perhaps SEPTA's plans changed once the Bi-Level deal fell through and of course the pandemic. Sidenote, I imagine your profile picture hypnotized MARC into "purchasing" (I used quotes because idk what they're actually gonna do) SEPTA's Sprinters

@TheOneKEA Regarding the Noise Abatement Order at Baltimore Penn (Shh), I'm not understanding why Hippos couldn't go there. If I'm not mistaken, MARC still stores a number of trains at Baltimore Penn over the weekend, most of which are diesel. In "theory" electric locomotives are quieter. However, idle locomotives are still noisy (try standing on a platform in NY Penn for example), so I'm not sure why it would affect them. Part of me feels if it were that serious, MARC wouldn't store so many trains there over the weekend. Then again, this is me on the outside looking in, so maybe there's something I don't know.

Regarding ALP-45DPs, I completely didn't even think of that as an option.
In theory that works great. My question is, who would maintain them and where would the parts come from?

For what it's worth, Wikipedia states Amtrak & Alstom are contracted by MARC to handle maintenance. So I'm assuming Alstom / Bombardier (makers of the ALP-45DP) would maintain them.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2024 8:29 am

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 9:44 pm So, you mean either converting sc44 into dual modes, or marc take the pantograph off the hippos, and mount on marc2 cars with a transformer, and pair with a sc44.

Likely making the SC-44's dual mode (diesel/caternary). The MARC II's are at most 40 years old at this time (Dating back to 1985), so I can't really see an extensive change-over only to replace them in 10 years, and likely going 100% bi-level.

The reason I'm asking is that I can't see MARC paying for new electrics that only get used on one line. MARC bought the SC-44's to replace the AEM-7's. I don't see MARC getting more engines if they can't run them on all the lines, so I'm thinking they'll get dual-modes to replace the MP36's and the HHP-8's.

Good points. Now that I think about it, since Amtrak maintained the HHP-8s, would they also handle the Sprinters? I'm asking because I'm not sure if Amtrak handles all of it, or the capacity in which Siemens is still involved.

This press release from 2014 says Siemens will supply parts and technical support for Amtrak's ACS-64s for 15 year, which would expire around 2030.

https://press.siemens.com/global/en/fea ... s-sprinter

I don't know what all of that entails, so I wonder how it will affect the Sprinters moving forward, and I wonder if that's why Amtrak is moving towards dual mode / trailer train sets. I know Siemens is building those too, but my thinking is, no tech support means less Sprinters on the rails for Amtrak, which could free up Sprinters for MARC.
This might be lower risk (in theory) for Amtrak given the shorter distance on MARC, even though Amtrak might still be maintaining them. The majority of Penn Line trains only run between Baltimore & DC vs using a Sprinter from DC - NY on an Amtrak train for instance.

I don't know much about Amtrak's & Siemens's working relationship. Like, with Amtrak getting Airo sets, I imagine Siemens will still be around to offer technical support for the Airos. Will they offer dare I say pro-bono support for the Sprinters since Amtrak is still shelling out coin?

Sidenote, does SEPTA maintain their own Sprinters independently? Or does Siemens support them like they do Amtrak? I'm wondering how that might affect MARC if they're going to get some from SEPTA.