What Price would it take to make electrification an attractive or viable option for Major Railroads?
Bus and Rail fan of the Pacific Northwest
Railroad Forums
What Price Per Gallon would make Electrification attractive?
- General discussion about locomotives, rolling stock, and equipment
Moderator: John_Perkowski
AmtrakFan wrote:Prorably $7.50 a gallon.Who knows, we may be nearly halfway there. Soon it will top $3.00, only a matter of time. In fact, up here, one gas station was almost there, Diesel was nearly $2.80 a gallon.
Bus and Rail fan of the Pacific Northwest
Do railroads get tax free dyed diesel since they build their own 'roads'? Farmers don't have to pay road tax, and it saves us a bundle.
It aint gonna happen, shipping charges will rise right along with the price of fuel and we will get stuck with the bill everytime we visit the store.
I remember reading something about fuel taxes and the RR's somewhere nate, cant think if they did or didnt have to pay. Someone on here knows i bet.
I remember reading something about fuel taxes and the RR's somewhere nate, cant think if they did or didnt have to pay. Someone on here knows i bet.
Do railroads get tax free dyed diesel since they build their own 'roads'? Farmers don't have to pay road tax, and it saves us a bundle.We recieved Pink diesel on the Arkansas and Missouri Railroad, I'm not sure about the class 1's, but I'd imagine they burn the same thing.
TxBritt
It's not necessarily the price of diesel fuel.
The cost of purchasing electric locomotives (lots of them), combined with the cost of constructing the electrified infrstructure is outa sight!!!!!
You want a $ figure per gallon of fuel? Maybe $200 dollars a gallon might cause some railroads to begin considering the tremendous cost of converting to electrification!
ACLfan
The cost of purchasing electric locomotives (lots of them), combined with the cost of constructing the electrified infrstructure is outa sight!!!!!
You want a $ figure per gallon of fuel? Maybe $200 dollars a gallon might cause some railroads to begin considering the tremendous cost of converting to electrification!
ACLfan
I agree with ACLfan. The cost of putting up the overhead and building the towers plus the new locos would not necessarily be productive because the cost of the electricity they purchase is also going to go up.
Better to bite the bullet and stay the way it is rather than undertaking a massive capital expense for construction.
Better to bite the bullet and stay the way it is rather than undertaking a massive capital expense for construction.
Sure electrification's pricy....if you overbuild it like the obnoxiously overdone Boston segment was.
Get some real cost control in, it's cheaper.
Don't bother using the standard gold plated systems paid for by transit agencies as a benchmark - they represent the high end of the cost scale.
Faced with putting up 100 miles of catenary for a 2 track line - you'll see the a private RR get the cost low - fast.
Really, what it's going to take at this point in the US is RR management that acutally wants to compete with trucking, as opposed to just pulling coal and grain around at 30mph.
It's a known fact that in the long term, electrification saves you money if the traffic's high enough.
I'm guessing the cut point will be 80 - 90 a barrel, and frankly, i can see $100 happening by year's end, especially if China keeps driving up demand.
I suspect you'll also see more interest in it the day China passes the US for oil consumption...
Get some real cost control in, it's cheaper.
Don't bother using the standard gold plated systems paid for by transit agencies as a benchmark - they represent the high end of the cost scale.
Faced with putting up 100 miles of catenary for a 2 track line - you'll see the a private RR get the cost low - fast.
Really, what it's going to take at this point in the US is RR management that acutally wants to compete with trucking, as opposed to just pulling coal and grain around at 30mph.
It's a known fact that in the long term, electrification saves you money if the traffic's high enough.
I'm guessing the cut point will be 80 - 90 a barrel, and frankly, i can see $100 happening by year's end, especially if China keeps driving up demand.
I suspect you'll also see more interest in it the day China passes the US for oil consumption...
OK, guys, so you are drooling for electrification! That's evident, based on your comments.
Hello! Electrification is pricey, regardless of how it is built! Nobody is talking about gold-plated locomotives transmission towers and wires! The cost of locomotives and the power systems are expensive, and it is simply a question of how much!
One little bitty detail that you had best consider is that over half of the existing electric power generating plants in the U.S. use oil or oil-based fuels to generate electric energy!
Wowy - Zowy!! So, what does that mean?
Well, for starters, as the price of oil and natural gas go up, so does the price of electric energy that will be generated in order to run all of the new-fangled electrified railroad lines that you are foaming to have built!
Yeah, believe it or not, the cost of electric energy to consumers, including railroads, is based on the price of a barrel of crude oil! As the price of oil increases, so does the price of electric energy!
It's sort of like a dog chasing its tail! You just better hope that if the dog ever catches his tail, he doesn't bite down too hard!
If so, it's gonna be painful!
ACLfan
Hello! Electrification is pricey, regardless of how it is built! Nobody is talking about gold-plated locomotives transmission towers and wires! The cost of locomotives and the power systems are expensive, and it is simply a question of how much!
One little bitty detail that you had best consider is that over half of the existing electric power generating plants in the U.S. use oil or oil-based fuels to generate electric energy!
Wowy - Zowy!! So, what does that mean?
Well, for starters, as the price of oil and natural gas go up, so does the price of electric energy that will be generated in order to run all of the new-fangled electrified railroad lines that you are foaming to have built!
Yeah, believe it or not, the cost of electric energy to consumers, including railroads, is based on the price of a barrel of crude oil! As the price of oil increases, so does the price of electric energy!
It's sort of like a dog chasing its tail! You just better hope that if the dog ever catches his tail, he doesn't bite down too hard!
If so, it's gonna be painful!
ACLfan
ACLfan wrote: One little bitty detail that you had best consider is that over half of the existing electric power generating plants in the U.S. use oil or oil-based fuels to generate electric energy!Umm no..
About 70% of electricity plants in the US use coal or NG for generation power, about 30% use hydro or nuclear. Only 2 or 3% of our electricity is generated by petroleum.
Even non-utilities that produce electricity mostly use NG and other sources, only about 3% use petroleum.
All energy prices are interrelated, since they are based on supply and demand. For example, when the price of petroleum increases, users switch to cheaper sources, increasing the demand and raising the price of that cheaper source. In that sense, electricity is tied to the cost of oil, but to say that "the cost of electric energy to consumers...is based on the price of a barrel of crude oil" is erroneous.
-r
support bio-diesel and make sure your railroad has lines run to every ethanol and biodiesel plant, it'll be a win-win situation.
Sorry, Razor
Your infomation about the percentage of power generators using oil is way off! Best to check out your data!
You acknowledged that the price of oil influenced the price of electricity, oil in its simplest form is a barrel of crude oil, so it affects the price of electric power.
Keep in mind that electric power generators do not have the ability to quickly adjust to a transition from one source of fuel to another source. And, it is costly! All of the costs are passed along to the consumer in the form of higher unit price rates of electric energy.
Do you still believe in magic wands? Transitions do not happen, presto! And, without addtional time and resultant costs.
ACLfan
Your infomation about the percentage of power generators using oil is way off! Best to check out your data!
You acknowledged that the price of oil influenced the price of electricity, oil in its simplest form is a barrel of crude oil, so it affects the price of electric power.
Keep in mind that electric power generators do not have the ability to quickly adjust to a transition from one source of fuel to another source. And, it is costly! All of the costs are passed along to the consumer in the form of higher unit price rates of electric energy.
Do you still believe in magic wands? Transitions do not happen, presto! And, without addtional time and resultant costs.
ACLfan
ACLfan wrote:Sorry, Razor
Your infomation about the percentage of power generators using oil is way off! Best to check out your data!
Umm okay I did!!!!!!!
US Department of Energy!, Energy Information Administration!: http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/ ... ectric.htm
"Share (%) of Industry Net Generation by Energy Source: Coal 51, Nuclear 20, Gas 17, Hydro 7, Oil 3, Other 3"!
-r!
Excessive use of exclaimation points is fun!, but it won't save you any money on car insurance!!!
I think the biggest hurdle for electrification is the shortsightedness that's so prevalent among corporate management (this isn't just endemic to railroading, but rather is a problem everywhere). The cost of diesel may be rising, but so long as it's cheaper to fuel up diesel engines than to buy new electric engines and string up wire, diesel is how it's going to be, no matter how much money may be saved "down the line." Shareholders want the most return on their investment, and sinking money into a huge capital project is going to have a big (downward) effect on short-term earnings, with no concrete promise of higher future earnings.
Phil Gengler
Overheard in NY Penn: "All aboard! Get on the train if you're coming with us!"
Overheard in NY Penn: "All aboard! Get on the train if you're coming with us!"