What if...[The Erie-Lackawanna Survived]?

I tried searching for this but didn't find anything? I read that the Erie-Lackawanna was one of the last, if not the last railroad company to join Conrail, when it was formed. The gov't felt that the E/L was just solvent enough to possibly make it on there own. (as it turned out they only lasted another 3 years?) BUT...what if the E/L had somehow managed to survive? Might NJT have never come into exsistence? And how would things be different today?

The EL would most likely have died against the Government sponsored Conrail.

But... if they lived, I think NJDOT would still be the operating outfit for passenger service operating over EL owned track.

I'll get into this more later. I'm on my mobile. I'm doing a fantasy Modern EL in HO and am trying to put together a believable history. Stay tuned...

I tend to agree that if even the Erie - Lackawanna had survived, Conrail would've killed it, and in all likelihood, I have a feeling they would've become freight only and NJ Transit would be doing what they do with NS & CSX now.

Now had NJDOT in 1963 maybe offered to pay money to elevate the tracks through Passaic (a project that should have occurred before 1963), maybe we might still have Passaic Park, Passaic, Clifton, and maybe Lakeview Stations. (Carlton Hill is kind of useless nowadays with Rutherford). Honestly, I feel the merge spelled doom for both railroads, and if the October 17, 1960 merge had never happened, I see a likely chance the Erie would have survived, but the Lackawanna might have seen the end.

(However at the same time I think that would've spelled doom for the Boonton Branch and as a result Kingsland, Lyndhurst, Delawanna, Passaic and Athenia stations might not have existed).


Sully, I'll be interested in seeing that, since it falls up my alley. (Ironically I was the Passaic Park Station site Sunday afternoon, you can't tell much except for the obvious right-of-way that a station stands there). Also if you're on for the hike on Saturday yet, we could always argue it then too.

Also, Passaic Park and both railroads have been revived at http://www.eastridgelawncemetery.com/Introduction.html

I would suggest this be moved to the 6 page thread under Fallen Flags ‹ DL&W, Erie and Erie Lackawanna
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 85&t=37952. Although that thread is titled "what if the hurricane never happened", the topics are very much related.

the state of NJ heavily subsided all the commuter operations starting in the 1950s. It only made sense for the state to take over operations, especially because they were resticting what the new equipment could be used for (IIRC, they had some issues with the U34s being used for weekend freight service by the EL for example, and same with the CNJ Geeps) and there needed to be so much investment in the infrastructure that you really couldn't trust a bankrupt or nearly bankrupt RR to invest the money given by the state into a certain station or certain project that would benefit commuters, when they can't make payroll that week.

Thanks! That's clear now. One minor point, by 1956 the ERIE trains to Chicago were all operating out of Hoboken Terminal, not Jersey City. The ERIE route to Chicago took 1-2 hours longer than the Lackawanna route.

Yea, sorry i noticed that after i posted. The main point though is more passenger routes could have been salvaged if EL and CNJ were handled a bit better. Lots of towns went from decent service to absolutely nothing within a few years.

NY&LB wrote:Thanks! That's clear now. One minor point, by 1956 the ERIE trains to Chicago were all operating out of Hoboken Terminal, not Jersey City. The ERIE route to Chicago took 1-2 hours longer than the Lackawanna route.

1957, not 1956. That was the year the Erie said forget it and closed Pavonia Terminal to everything but Northern Branch & NYS&W trains. The next year is when the Northern Branch went to Hoboken. (A certain hose check was needing leaving Nyack to get to Hoboken Terminal.)

Now had NJDOT had more consideration into the EL going to the ICC in 1966 to kill a ton of commuter service, we might have more lines. However that was not to be.

HBLR wrote:Yea, sorry i noticed that after i posted. The main point though is more passenger routes could have been salvaged if EL and CNJ were handled a bit better. Lots of towns went from decent service to absolutely nothing within a few years.

You have to look at the bigger picture of the time. There were not people riding the trains. Ridership was plummeting. it feeds on itself, ridership drops, service is cut, ridership further drops, service is further cut and the cycle continues til the entire service is ended. Also the railroads themselves sometimes helped the decreasing ridership by cutting service and changing schedules to discourage ridership.

This was not just an NJ thing, it was nationwide. The state could only do so much, as the railroads were still private companies. Gov subsiding private companies....sound familar? hmmmmm The biggest problem was property taxes and the burdens placed on the railroads, as the towns still looked at them as cash cows and tried to get every dime possible out of them by charging very high tax rates, and taxing structures, infrastructure, etc.

basically had to "trim the branches to save the tree". The entire system from the 50s and 60s was not sustainable at the time and not for a few decades. MAYBE it could be sustainable today, but even that, i bet there would be a few routes that would have little or very low ridership.

Instead, the system was shrunk, and the focus put on the core lines, and they were rebuilt/upgraded. Say what you want about NJT, but considering what they got and the condition of the infrastructure in the 60s and 70s, the condition of it now is simply amazing. Did they get everything right? Of course not, but a large portion they did and the railroad can be ranked among some of the best in the country. Hopefully in the future, some of the branches cut will be rebuilt and put back in service, but like everything else today, its all political and tied to money.

Very well put, and I totally agree.

Like all most everything that has failed, it was partly to do with the mindset of the general population at the time. Similar to MILW, where the railroad could have been saved, but the management kind of let go of the wheel and the whole system plowed itself into an (in my opinion) early grave. What if people embraced rail transport as a big part of the whole picture, what if Chris Christie woke up one morning a few weeks from now and decided to put all his powers and resources into developing NJT partnering with pennsylvania to create a true regional transit system? What if, what if. WHat if we here on this forum did our part to try and work towards the goals that make the most sense, without turning our back on the past and traditions etc.

Yes, NJT took a ragged mess, and with amtrak really fixed things up to a point that hasn't been seen since the 30's as far as state of repair. There's still a lot to be done, but most of it is age related.

Nah, I'd be more interested in tri-rail and the in-park monorail. A family member actually works there, but I've never had an interest in going.

Back to EL. Lackawanna got washed out, yes? Wasnt this the primary reason for the merger? I've heard that some of those segments are still washed out. Yea, that storm & other things conspired against the railroads I'd say starting in 1942 when a proper contract with the government to transport things was never really established as far as I know (could be wrong). That left the nation with outdated equipment and hurting physical plant that was never remedied. Then in 1952(?) the NIHA took "war effort repayment" and used it to kill much long distance & intercity service. Granted there was some over-extension, but the damn ICC made it near impossible for much of the changes to take place fast enough. Enter big fish eats little fish, government FINALLY steps in but too late to do anything but butcher & then stitch together what became a profitable freight system in the northeast & towards Chicago. Passenger service, although not entirely (or on some lines EVER) profitable is stripped to a bare minimum thanks to a few people with the forward thinking to advocate for its continuation, although vastly reduced. Some lines were totally abandoned as far as pax, leaving the states or Amtrak to pick up the pieces.

Rail transport should not be at the whim of politicians. That much is clear.

HBLR wrote:Rail transport should not be at the whim of politicians. That much is clear.

But, it is going to be for the forseeable future just as it has been for quite some time. I know this is a "what if" thread (and I'm not really a fan of these kinds of threads in the first place) but let's try to not let our imaginations run too wild.

Jtgshu wrote:the state of NJ heavily subsided all the commuter operations starting in the 1950s. It only made sense for the state to take over operations, especially because they were resticting what the new equipment could be used for (IIRC, they had some issues with the U34s being used for weekend freight service by the EL for example, and same with the CNJ Geeps)

I can remember the U-Boats frequently being used on weekends. What always had me wondering was how the EL thought the state would not notice. They were borrowing railroad locomotives, not paper clips. One kinda sticks out.

Jtgshu wrote:...there needed to be so much investment in the infrastructure that you really couldn't trust a bankrupt or nearly bankrupt RR to invest the money given by the state into a certain station or certain project that would benefit commuters, when they can't make payroll that week.

Funny you should mention payroll. An ironic non-secret during the late 60s and early 70s that despite the money the railroads said they were losing on commuter trains, the EL frequently would not have made payroll if not for the commuter cash. Freight customers could take weeks or months to pay, but the passenger cash came in every day.

Roadgeek Adam wrote:1957, not 1956. That was the year the Erie said forget it and closed Pavonia Terminal to everything but Northern Branch & NYS&W trains. The next year is when the Northern Branch went to Hoboken. (A certain hose check was needing leaving Nyack to get to Hoboken Terminal.)

From ERIE Form 1 public Timetable effective 2:01AM October 28, 1956: " we've changed stations ALL ERIE TRAINS (except certain commuter trains) NOW ARRIVE AND DEPART from the ERIE-LACKAWANNA STATION in HOBOKEN New Jersey instead of Jersey City" capitalization exactly as it appears in the timetable.

NY&LB wrote: From ERIE Form 1 public Timetable effective 2:01AM October 28, 1956: " we've changed stations ALL ERIE TRAINS (except certain commuter trains) NOW ARRIVE AND DEPART from the ERIE-LACKAWANNA STATION in HOBOKEN New Jersey instead of Jersey City" capitalization exactly as it appears in the timetable.

Perhaps the first use of "Erie-Lackawanna", four years pre-merger.