Westline, PA and surrounding area

Westline, for those not aware is south and west of Bradford PA - down Route 219 and a right turn west down a little remote road.

Several questions:
1. looking at various maps the section between Westline and Morrison is both Kushequa Route and PRR. Did ownership or operation change over the years ? When was the last train into Westline and from what direction ? Was there a depot building there ? Photo sources ?

2. A 1926 topo shows a branch coming off the ERIE at Lewis Run parallel to Route 219 south where it cuts into a hollow to the West. One map seems to indicate this as Lewis Run coming off the hill and another seems to suggest it is Bear Run. The 1926 topo does not label the run. Anyone know what this was about. Other maps don't show this line so it may not have been there long.

That whole area is just fascinating. It almost seems that you can't go more that a few hundred yards in any direction without coming across an old ROW.

Regarding Westline, from Westline west to Morrison (and eventually to Kinzua?) was eventually known as the Kinzua Branch of the PRR, abandoned 1954. I think it was PRR right to the end. http://www.abandonedrails.com/Kinzua_Branch" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It started in 1892 - http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1892%20 ... 202011.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; as the Kinzua Valley RR -

For Morrison to Westline, I found this 1900 PRR report (see page 48 of the 1900 section of the link - there are several reports back to back) - it says the the "KInzua Valley RR" of 10 miles from Westline to MOrrison Jct. was operated under contract by the PRR. Not sure if that was the case from right from 1892. I read somewhere that it was standard gauge very early - but not sure about 1892. http://books.google.com/books?id=5sU7AQ ... ne&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

About the end, this link says there was a "Day Chemical Company" in Westline 1901-1952, so its demise may be why the PRR Kinzua branch shut down in 1954. So I suspect the last cars went in/out from/to Kinzua. http://www.epa.gov/superfund/programs/r ... n3_pa.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Googling "Westline" together with "KInzua" brings up an ebay hit for a slide of a 1949 PRR car in Westline, so it really was active at least til then, but the link is dead - I guess the slide was sold.

EDIT: Going east from Westline, I don't know about any PRR history. I am fairly sure eventually the Kushnequa RR ran this part (connecting to Kushequa).

I could be wrong on some of these details..

One last interesting link: This 1894 map labels the section "Mt J & K RR" - presumably" Mt Jewett and Kinzua", which was related to the Kushequa I believe. Was this the Kinzua Valley RR before the PRR leased it. http://www.west2k.com/pastations/mckean.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (see the bottom of the page)....

As for Lewis Run, I dug through that area a few years ago, but can't remember it now. I'll see what I can dig up.

"Aa3rt" who posts here is an expert on this area.

JS

Thanks for the interesting information.
A person could spend a lifetime trying to figure out the railroads in about a 40 miles radius of Mt. Alton.

C-J, note I edited what I posted above. I had east and west mixed up at one point....

Some more: 1934: "PRR contracts with short line Valley Railroad to operate PRR Kinzua Branch, Kinzua to West Line, Pa." http://www.prrths.com/Hagley/PRR1934%20Aug%2004.wd.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JS

Now I wonder who or what the Valley Railroad was all about.

What a complex web of lines, owners, operators, history in this area etc.

Several weeks ago I was in the Lewis Run area looking for the aborted tunnels on the original ERIE survey, too much snow and that will have to wait till spring. Last weekend I skied a bit of the rail bed west from Westline. And of course down further on Route 219 you can see parts of the original PRR (P&E) construction that never saw rail.

Couple that with the B&O lines, BR&P, ERIE, Logging railroads, (MJK&R, KV) BB&K OB&W, PRR lines incl. WNYP, PS&N etc. etc. it is a real dogs breakfast. As mentioned in the original post, I never knew until looking at old maps of the ERIE line or whatever it was out of Lewis Run down parallel to Route 219 north of the 219 / Route 59 intersection.

Here is a very interesting photo of a Shay and a homemade bay window caboose listed as Tally-Ho, PA which would be east of Westline where the railroad crossed Route 219: http://cdm15330.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ ... 2/id/77277" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another shot of #2 listed as near Westline: http://www.gearedsteam.com/shay/images/valley_rr_2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and then Union charcoal & Chemical near Westline, whoever they were: http://www.gearedsteam.com/shay/images/ ... sn3173.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One more near Westline:
http://www.gearedsteam.com/shay/images_sj-sz.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
JS
EDIT: see near the bottom of the page under "Susquehanna Chemical Corp"

I dug out my copy of "Sawmills among the Derricks" by Thomas Taber III (not Paul Pietrak as I thought yesterday). It covers all the logging railroads and related topics in McKean country, with lots of pictures and stories from old timers who were part of it all. A classic if you can find it, I've spent hours poring over it.

On the west side of Westline, a logging entrepreneur Spencer Bullis built the Kinzua Valley RR from Morrison where it connected with the Western NY & Pa. RR (which was then or later became part of the PRR), to Westline in 1890-91, to get timber and/or lumber out of the that part of the Kinzua Valley. By 1892 he leased to to the WNY&P.

On the east side of Westline, an even bigger logging entrepreneur Elisha Kane, built a "Kinzua and Hemlock RR" in 1891 to go about 12 miles east from Westline to Kushequa, where he had is main lumber mill - the main purpose of the RR was to bring timber (and peeled hemlock bark for tanneries) from tracts he owned east to the mill.

Both of these lines were standard gauge, at least by around 1892 or 3 if they weren't from the start.

In 1901, Edmund Day started the Day Chemical company in Westline to process logs to make chemicals - common in the area. I didn't know this until I saw it in the book, but in those days by heating wood without air you could make methanol (wood alcohol) and acetic acid and other chemicals - this was one of the main ways they were made. He started the "Valley RR" which was just a mile or so around of Westline to his plant and maybe nearby to get wood. That's where the Valley RR (not Kinzua Valley RR) came from. By 1905 the logging for timber/hemlock was done, so Kane sold most of the Kinzua and Hemlock (from Westline east to near Kushequa) to Day (so Day could bring wood west to his plant), and the Valley RR expanded to take over this stretch.

Meanwhile on Kinzua Valley, the track was so light that the WNYP/PRR engines were derailing. So in 1934 the PRR cut a deal for the Valley RR to operate service from Westline to Morrison (since Day CHemical was the most important shipper - a lot of their product went out that way). So now the Valley RR operated from Morrison to Kushequa, typically using a Shay engine

With less wood and more cars & trucks, the Valley RR from Westline to near Kushequa was abandoned and pulled up in 1936. The Valley RR continued to operate its own local plant trackage in Westline and the Kinzua Valley RR to Morrison

In 1930 Edmund Day retired and closed his plant in Westline. It then continued operation under new ownership and changed hands a few times, becoming part of the Susquehanna Chemical Company 1946, which then owned the Valley RR too I suppose. That would explain the lettering on the picture I linked in the previous post. The plant closed in 1951 and the Kinzua Branch of PRR (former Kinzua Valley) went out in 1953.

Note the map I linked above must be mislabelled in one minor detail regarding Mt J &K RR. This must refer to Mt Jewett, Kinzua and Riterville RR which wwas Elisha Kane's earliest RR out of Kushequa, and all his local lines were sometimes given this label. However, they never went west of Westline.

Note some of this contradicts details of what I posted earlier, but this post is right from the bible, more reliable than my memory.

JS
Still looking for Lewis Run info

Thanks for the clarifications, it is easy to see why it is so confusing.

So the photo link posted in my earlier post of Susquehanna Valley Chemical #2 at Tally-Ho probably is not at Tally-Ho as the line east from Westline would have been gone prior to Susquehanna Chemical and the date tagged on the photo of July 15, 1947.

I am still trying to digest all this.

I believe that the portion of line from Morrison to Kinzua Junction was built as narrow gage and that was the line that extended up to Marshburg where there was an enginehouse and then down the hill through Songbird to Bradford?

And how does the line from Westline east to Kushequa tie into the line that went under Kinzua Viaduct and then under the BR&P to Ormsby and off to Farmers Valley ? So Morrison was a railroad Junction until the line from Morrison to White Gravel was torn out if I am understanding this.

Cactus Jack wrote:So the photo link posted in my earlier post of Susquehanna Valley Chemical #2 at Tally-Ho probably is not at Tally-Ho as the line east from Westline would have been gone prior to Susquehanna Chemical and the date tagged on the photo of July 15, 1947.

Yes, if my reference is right then the picture would be on the other side of Westline.

And how does the line from Westline east to Kushequa tie into the line that went under Kinzua Viaduct and then under the BR&P to Ormsby and off to Farmers Valley ?

You are right again. From Kushequa, which was the center of action with the sawmill and town and some other industries, the other standard gauge lines of Kane were the Mt Jewett Kinzua and Riterville which ran south up the hill to Mt. Jewett (built 1889, gone by 1942), and the Kushequa RR (built 1898) which ran NE under the Kinzua viaduct to McKean (just north of Ormsby) where it crossed the Bradford Bordell and Kinzua (BBK) narrow gauge. Just before McKean the Kushequa RR crossed under the Buffalo Rochester & Pittsburgh at "Bachus" in a tunnel which is still there. It then continued on to Farmers Valley (built 1900-1904, gone by 1914). From McKean there was also a branch under a different name(s?) to Smethport & East Smethport (1899), to compete with the narrow gauge from Ormsby. The whole thing from Kushequa to Smethport was gone 1932.
JS

rail

Cactus Jack wrote:I believe that the portion of line from Morrison to Kinzua Junction was built as narrow gage and that was the line that extended up to Marshburg where there was an enginehouse and then down the hill through Songbird to Bradford?
...
So Morrison was a railroad Junction until the line from Morrison to White Gravel was torn out if I am understanding this

Right and right again. As part of the oil field boom the Kinzua Railway was built 1881 from Kinzua to Marshburg (12 miles, through White Gravel Creek) along with partner Bradford Railway, Bradford to Marshburg (14 miles), as part of trying to built a route from Bradford to Warren (both narrow gauge). I've also seen these called part of the Olean Bradford & Warren narrow gauge system.

Both were bought at the end of 1881 by the Buffalo NY & Philadelphia or Western NY & Pennsylvania(?) (both eventually PRR) which had the line passing through Kinzua along the Allegheny River on the way to Warren.

In 1896 the Bradford-Marshburg part was abandoned, and the Kinzua-Marshburg part was standard-gauged. It was cut back over time, to Morrison by 1927 and then to Kinzua (by then part of the Kinzua Valley RR to Westline) in 1953. So yes, Morrison was a junction of the later Kinzua Valley RR with the first-built Kinzua Railway until 1927 it seems.
See this google book preview (hope you can see it, page 509) http://books.google.com/books?id=7POj8G ... ia&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One thing I have never been able to find out was the exact route of the Marshburg to Bradford segment. Using old maps and old Penn Pilot aerial photos, I think I can get from Morrison to Marshburg and then Marshburg to Songbird (on what is now Songbird Rd high on the hill a few miles south of Bradford). Some old maps call this area "Songbird School." But how it got down the hill and into Bradford I can't find anywhere for the life of me. All ideas welcome.

JS

Several years ago I thought I detected a grade down near Songbird but from there to Bradford I have found nothing physical. I think it must have been up on the west hillside above Route 219 north of Custer City somehow. Also, going down the hill from Marshburg on Route 321 I found where the tracks were and the roadbed is pretty visible. I picked up some spikes and a four hole joint bar.As to locations mentioned such as Gates or White Gravel I am not clear at all where they would be physically located or what might have existed there.

From the point where it intersected Route 321 and up the hill towards Marshburg was simply too brushy to hike, and that was in early April. I have never been sure just where it crossed present day Route 59 in the Marshburg area.

Cactus Jack, Very cool that there are still artifacts out there! From Chapel Bay, the Kinzua Railway followed Chapel Fork all the way to Marshburg - first west near 321 as you noted, then staying along Chapel Fork when 321 bends north east. East of 321 I think that West Chapel Fork Rd may have been built on the RoW in some (many?) sections. Here a map which should have markers J (original location of Kinzua) to I (Morrison) up to Marshburg (A). Note you can go back and forth between road mode and topo mode, etc with the buttons on top right. http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=41.83776,-78 ... rvoir%20PA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I assume the White Gravel Creek stop was where it crossed the creek of that name (F). Gates was supposedly about a mile west of Marshburg so it would have been around my point (C). The crossing of 59 is at (A), perhaps the engine house you referred to earlier was about here.

Your post first had me confused because on my map Route 321 sort of jumps when it hits 59 and then runs in the next valley north, Sugar Creek Run, so I thought at first you were referring to it. According to the book I have the line in that valley was labelled "CPL" (maybe Central Pa Lumber, but I am not sure), and it did not go all the way up to Marshburg, only to Linn Brook a few miles west.
JS
I found info on Lewis brook, no time to post now

Regarding Lewis Run, there was the Lafayette Manufacturing Company, which was a lumber and wood chemical operation there, which ran the Bradford & Western RR to connect to the Erie (std gauge) and to go up Lewis Run, to within a few miles of Marshburg, with a few branches, to get wood (narrow gauge). Some detail is given in the same book I linked to about the Bradford and Kinzua Railways a few posts ago - go to that link and scroll up to page 506 for a map that shows it and then to end of page 504 for a description. It says it was 2 miles from the Erie, but if it was where I think it was it was (just west of the corner of Lafayette Ave and Lincoln St) it was only ~ 1/2 mile. Looking at the 1940 Pennpilot aerial photos, it was long gone by then, with just a building or so left if any.
There is a more detailed map of the RR and a map of the chemical plant layout in the Tabor book. It is copyrighted so I don't want to post it here, but send me a message through this site with an email and I can send you a copy. He called it "Lewis Run Manufacturing Company" but trying that and Lafayette on Google makes Lafayette seem more likely.

Also, I found a 1946 map from Richard Carpenter in his US RR atlas, and it has the Valley RR still operating a short bit EAST from WestLine (about halfway to Talley Ho), so maybe that photo was correctly labelled after all since it says "near" Talley Ho. http://books.google.com/books?id=1vQOV2 ... 22&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

JS