• Wacky idea: Abandon CSX main through Rochester?

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New York State.

Moderator: Otto Vondrak

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  by lvrr325
 
I can't see them hamstringing themselves to put all those trains on the Shore and leave no bypass or secondary route. The Shore serves basically as a third main track between those points. Maybe they could abandon one main track on the Water Level side but given the huge costs to relocate out of there plus the chances of plugging the line entirely I can't see this sort of thing happening.
  by JoeCollege
 
tree68 wrote:One or the other main at Utica is regularly tied up when CSX handles MWHA (drops made eastbound and pickups made westbound), and may or may not still happen with NYSW (everything was done eastbound).
As far as NYSW, CSX could easily move interchange back to Syracuse, and NYSW could bring it down to Forks and back up to Utica now that the Utica line is repaired. That's how all service on that line ran until the floods of 2006. Fairly certain eliminating a stop and the resulting fouling of a mainline track would fit into the way HH likes to run things.
  by BR&P
 
mp366 wrote:the westbounds would fit between East River Road and Brighton Henrietta Town Line, but the eastbounds would have to fit between 33A and Union St? Interesting theoretical debate we have here...
I'm not sure I follow. Eastbounds would have to fit east of Archer Road, which should not be difficult except for the longest trains. Westbounds would have to cut to clear East River Road, and while not sure of the distance I think Town Line Road could be an issue. Once you are east of Town Line Road the next crossing is......Winton? LOTS of room there, but I don't see them shoving a westbound pickup all the way past TL RD. But since CSX moves everything east to Selkirk, westbound pickups would probably not be an issue.
  by Matt Langworthy
 
BR&P wrote:
mp366 wrote:the westbounds would fit between East River Road and Brighton Henrietta Town Line, but the eastbounds would have to fit between 33A and Union St? Interesting theoretical debate we have here...
I'm not sure I follow. Eastbounds would have to fit east of Archer Road, which should not be difficult except for the longest trains. Westbounds would have to cut to clear East River Road, and while not sure of the distance I think Town Line Road could be an issue. Once you are east of Town Line Road the next crossing is......Winton? LOTS of room there, but I don't see them shoving a westbound pickup all the way past TL RD. But since CSX moves everything east to Selkirk, westbound pickups would probably not be an issue.
Say what??? As i recall, some LA&L and R&S traffic currently comes from Buffalo and points west via CSX. Running east to Selkirk and then back west to Genesee Junction would be a colossal waste of time.
  by Matt Langworthy
 
BR&P wrote:
Having 2 routes through Monroe County relieves congestion. Dumping either the West Shore or the main is a fool's errand from a standpoint of congestion.
If you eliminate block swapping at Rochester, there is about NO congestion. You've got what - 1, maybe 2 trains dropping at Gen Jct. a day. Granted Amtrak would possibly affect the issue but maybe a third track could be put at the station in case a freight needed to get by? Most trains go through here and wave as they pass by already.

Acreage? What for? Rochester is rapidly becoming just a wide spot in the road. You would not need nearly the acreage that is at Goodman Street now.
Goodman Street is more than just a drop off for the LA&L traffic. The R&S also brings in there traffic, which (as you pointed out elsewhere) includes alot of salt heading east. Goodman Street is also the base fopr the following traffic: the garbage being shipped to the landfill in Perinton, OMID, Eastman Business Park, Wayerhouser and whatever is going to/from Lyons. Oh BTW... speaking of Lyons... Goodman Street was also the base FiGLK interchange traffic when the Geneva-Lyons segment of the Corning Secondary was still in service. See why Goodman is needed now?
BR&P wrote:As far as I know, Frontier is essentially dead except for recrews, storage and block swapping.
And CSX had a service meltdown when they weren't using it. The hump isn't the key component.
BR&P wrote:Biggest issue I can see is the NIMBYS and I agree that would be a major obstacle.
They already pitch a fit regarding the existing bridge over Route 153, so it would only get worse if CSX tried to put more trains on it... even though the bridge is good shape.
lvrr325 wrote:I can't see them hamstringing themselves to put all those trains on the Shore and leave no bypass or secondary route. The Shore serves basically as a third main track between those points. Maybe they could abandon one main track on the Water Level side but given the huge costs to relocate out of there plus the chances of plugging the line entirely I can't see this sort of thing happening.
Bingo! You get it. The West Shore is more than just a bypass for Goodman Street.
  by Matt Langworthy
 
sd80mac wrote:or coordinate with RS and LAL to make drop and pick up more effective. Have them wait and ready to go in to grab block off CSX train and then put outgoing block onto the block. Something like that to cut down the time of tying up mainline
That could be rather tough. The R&S can run up to 4 trains in each direction per day through Genesee Junction on their single track mainline. Add in the LA&L running to/from Brooks Ave and you've got a fairly busy route. The R&S isn't going to delay service to their customers or interchange with NS by changing the interchange with CSX from Goodman Street to Genesee Junction.
  by BR&P
 
Matt Langworthy wrote:Say what??? As i recall, some LA&L and R&S traffic currently comes from Buffalo and points west via CSX. Running east to Selkirk and then back west to Genesee Junction would be a colossal waste of time.
No, my point is traffic FROM the area - at one time anyway - went east before coming back west to Buffalo and on from there. Eastbound trains would both drop and pick up at Genesee Jct.
Goodman Street is more than just a drop off for the LA&L traffic. The R&S also brings in there traffic, which (as you pointed out elsewhere) includes alot of salt heading east. Goodman Street is also the base fopr the following traffic: the garbage being shipped to the landfill in Perinton, OMID, Eastman Business Park, Wayerhouser and whatever is going to/from Lyons. Oh BTW... speaking of Lyons... Goodman Street was also the base FiGLK interchange traffic when the Geneva-Lyons segment of the Corning Secondary was still in service. See why Goodman is needed now?
In my hypothetical scenario, the salt would go east from Genesee Jct - no Goodman Street yard needed. And if you read the OP, I said local traffic such as Kodak and the box plant would be given to R&S at Genesee Jct for local delivery. I'm not sure what FGLK traffic at Lyons has to do with this - that has been dead for....what, about 10 years give or take? So you base a local out of Lyons, or even Genesee Jct, to work between Lyons and Fairport. Garbage, OMID, Fairport, Macedon....bring the goaways to Genesee Jct for the eastbound move to Selkirk.

So to answer your question, 10 years ago yes I see where Goodman Street Yard was needed. As for the present, you have not yet convinced me.
  by BR&P
 
The R&S isn't going to delay service to their customers or interchange with NS by changing the interchange with CSX from Goodman Street to Genesee Junction.
In my hypothetical, R&S would have better operations with less delay. They would handle their traffic to and from Maplewood - a direct jump from Brooks Avenue Yard all on their own railroad - rather than being held at CP373 or Goodman Street by the CSX dispatcher running stuff on the main line.
  by Noel Weaver
 
I don't think there is a chance that the mainline through Rochester will be downgraded or abandoned in favor of the West Shore. The way things were in my working days the West Shore was and probably still is a good by-pass around Rochester if there is congestion there or if the dispatcher needs to run a train around another train. The
West Shore is a decent piece of railroad but the mainline is just as decent and maybe more so. It would cost plenty to double track the West Shore today, the old second track was pulled up way back in the New York Central days. It is very useful in its present status and I doubt if it anything will happen here.
Noel Weaver
  by umtrr-author
 
BR&P wrote:Once you are east of Town Line Road the next crossing is......Winton?
Yes, Winton Road, then Edgewood Avenue, then Monroe Avenue. After that the next road crossing isn't until Fairport.
  by BR&P
 
umtrr-author wrote:
Yes, Winton Road, then Edgewood Avenue, then Monroe Avenue. After that the next road crossing isn't until Fairport.
Thanks George! Image
  by Matt Langworthy
 
BR&P wrote:No, my point is traffic FROM the area - at one time anyway - went east before coming back west to Buffalo and on from there. Eastbound trains would both drop and pick up at Genesee Jct.

As I understand the current operations, both eastbound and westbound trains stop at Goodman Street now. Your plan is less flexible.
BR&P wrote: I'm not sure what FGLK traffic at Lyons has to do with this - that has been dead for....what, about 10 years give or take?
It's relevant because FGLK President Mike Smith has stated FGLK is still interested in acquiring the line. I have heard from other sources that there have been negotiations, but NS and FGLK haven't been able to come to terms.
BR&P wrote:So to answer your question, 10 years ago yes I see where Goodman Street Yard was needed. As for the present, you have not yet convinced me.
Aside from coal traffic, the local traffic base in Rochester hasn't changed much over the past 10 years. And coal didn't go to Goodman Street anyway.
Noel Weaver wrote:I don't think there is a chance that the mainline through Rochester will be downgraded or abandoned in favor of the West Shore. The way things were in my working days the West Shore was and probably still is a good by-pass around Rochester if there is congestion there or if the dispatcher needs to run a train around another train. The West Shore is a decent piece of railroad but the mainline is just as decent and maybe more so. It would cost plenty to double track the West Shore today, the old second track was pulled up way back in the New York Central days. It is very useful in its present status and I doubt if it anything will happen here.
Noel Weaver
Great point! Conrail was cutting routes as late as 1996, when it sold off branchlines to the Falls Road and the R&N. If 2 routes weren't needed through Monroe County, Conrail would have sold or lifted the West Shore before the split in 1999. Traffic hasn't dropped off much since then.
Last edited by Matt Langworthy on Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by sd80mac
 
Matt Langworthy wrote:traffic hasn't dropped off much since then.

They dropped 20-30 trains a day between Frontier and Selkirk. A lot of coals and coke are gone. manifest trains had gone up after day one but I think that they cut them down right now. CSX have less TV and ML than CR.
  by sd80mac
 
BR&P wrote:Double track the West Shore. The right of way is there, it USED to be double track so just put back the second track.
I'm not sure on that. Bridges over R&S, W Henrietta rd, E Henrietta road, 390, Main st in Pittsford, Golf ave, 490 and Marsh rd are single track bridges. I cant see CSX putting 50-100 millions of dollars, or a lot more, expanding their bridges to double track width, unless they put in gauntlet tracks on these mentioned bridges. I looked over Googleearth that are showing that these bridges aren't double track width.
  by sd80mac
 
EHH could make it single tracked from Chili to fairport through Rochester. And make these main line and Westshore one direction on alternate days or every 12 hours, except for Amtrak.

Hell it's almost always lull times whenever Amtrak show up... So Amtrak shouldn't have any problem running through signle track. On top of that, no crossing from cherry road to....road next to boces, maybe Cuomo might throw $ in to make these track 110 mph... LOL
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