Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

[Noel Weaver]

Here's an interesting thought, and yes probably too far fetched for the politics between NYC/NJ/LI. But look what other cities have been able to do in combining their varied commuter services.

What if LIRR East Side Access was not built into GCT, but instead several stations were built as part of a Second Ave subway?? The initial segment would obviously start at the 63rd St tunnel. There could be a station at 55th St, 42nd St, 34th St, and 14th St.

Phase II - bring the line downtown. Instead of building a new East River tunnel for JFK and LIRR access, just continue the line into downtown along the proposed route of the 2nd Ave subway.

Phase III - NJT's access to the regions core. Build the new Hudson tunnels to downtown to connect with this new subway. Follow the old PRR ROW into Jersey City, start the tunnel just after Journal Square. There could be a downtown Jersey City station, a WTC station, and Canal St, before heading uptown to 14, 34, 42, and 55.

Phase IV - extend the local service of the subway further uptown.

We could have both NJT and LIRR thru trains with multiple station stops along the east side, direct EWR and JFK train service from all the stations and downtown as well. This gives the possibility of many more people getting a once seat ride - grant you for midtown people it is on the east side though. 2 tracks for NJT, 2 for LIRR. NJT could serve any additional uptown stations.

LIRR could have a yard near EWR airport. No need to extend PATH to EWR. If NJT continued to Jamaica, where would there be space for a yard for them??

We basically replace 5 projects with 1. Thoughts??

I have no idea where you propose the money come from for this dream.
I would think you people are looking at about a 40 per cent income tax.
The average joe would be satisfied with clean, dependable and decent
service to the existing terminals. There are other alternatives available
to get around NYC.
Folks, this has been discussed, discussed and discussed here. Metro-North
is NOT going to go to Penn Station. There is no track space there for them
and there will not be within the existing 21 track station.
There is no extra capacity under either river either, forget it.
Noel Weaver

[burkeman]

That will never happen.

[drewh]

I have no idea where you propose the money come from for this dream.
I would think you people are looking at about a 40 per cent income tax.
The average joe would be satisfied with clean, dependable and decent
service to the existing terminals. There are other alternatives available
to get around NYC.
Folks, this has been discussed, discussed and discussed here. Metro-North
is NOT going to go to Penn Station. There is no track space there for them
and there will not be within the existing 21 track station.
There is no extra capacity under either river either, forget it.
Noel Weaver

I believe I gave a partial solution to funding by combining and/or eliminating 5 projects. ARC is already being talked about in terms of funding from PA (reroute). The PATH EWR extension is funded (eliminate). Pataki is serious about the LIRR to downtown (eliminate) - that East River tunnel does not need to be built if you tunnel down from 63rd St. Combining these projects provides a partial funding solution. Also, why build 2 huge underground new terminals (East Side Access, and new NJT 34th St - eliminate both) when you could run thru service along 2nd Ave. Build storage yards and turn facilites at EWR and LI (above ground so cheaper). Thru stations only need 4 tracks and 2 platforms. Most of the route can be done with cut & cover rather than tunneling which significantly reduces costs. Its about 5 miles in Manhattan, 1 mile under the river, and 1 more mile in JC - the JC & Hudson protions are no longer that what is suggested already for ARC.

I never mentioned anything about MN, nor did I mention anything about sqeezing more service into the existing tunnels and terminals. 63rd St tunnel is already built and goes un-used for LIRR. I proposed moving the new Hudson tunnel. These 2 tunnels are the increased capacity.

There are all these projects on the table - why not think outside the box a little. There is no reason why a city like NY can not get thru service going. Do you think everyone wants to end up at NYP or GCT?? Spread service around to different locations and stop forcing everyone to transfer to the subway - it adds weekly hours to a commute, as well as additional crowds on the subway.

[DutchRailnut]

ARC is a dream without substance
Pataki is a lame duck govenor on his way out, he will promise anything.
as far as his credebility just look at the roads and highways in New york state.

[drewh]

Regarding the new ARC Hudson tunnels:

The PA already has pledged to kick in $1billion for construction of the tunnel, but the project still faces major hurdles.

As quoted from the NY Daily News:
http://www.trainnet.org/dcforum/DCForumID24/67.html

Regarding downtown JFK link:

Pryor said officials will push Congress again to allow $2 billion in unused post-9/11 recovery aide to be used for the rail project. The MTA and PA have pledged about a $1 billion for the project, Pryor said.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/s ... 2721c.html[/quote]

Newark airport PATH extension:

The Port Authority will allocate $60 million to study a direct connection from Lower Manhattan to JFK, and $30 million to study extending the PATH to Newark. If the projects are determined to be feasible from an engineering, operational and financial standpoint, the Port Authority would include funding for these projects in its Capital Plan -- the extension to Newark at an estimated cost of at least $500 million, and contribute an equivalent amount for airport access to JFK.

Seems to me we have at least $2 billion on the table, if not $4.5 billion.

[JoeG]

Drewh--Your link about money for the NJ-NY tunnel is from 2003. Right now there is no major money committed, by either the PA or NY or NJ or the Feds, to that tunnel. Major money, in this case, I'm defining as $1 billion or more. I would be delighted to be proven wrong on this, so I hope you or somebody else can demonstrate my ignorance. The project of Lower Manhattan to JFK has much more money committed to it, but only about half or less of the total cost.

[drewh]

This article dated 2/22/2005 says the PA will contribute up to $2 billion for the ARC tunnel.
http://www.accesstotheregionscore.com/i ... rticle.gif

[JoeG]

drewh--
I read your Feb2005 link. I don't think that is a committment from PA, I think it's a lesser statement of support, sort of like Pataki's recent statement. I sent NJ-ARP a query this morning asking what money they see as committed to the tunnel, and if they answer, I'll post what they say. Even if the PA kicks in $2 billion, I see NY as kicking in $0. That leaves NJ and the Feds with $3 billion to contribute, not counting cost increases. NJ is broke, and, unlike the PA and NY, seems reluctant to float large bond issues. I assume this tunnel will eventually get built, but I don't see it as being finished before 2020 or 2025. For it to get finished by 2015, they would have to start work in a year or two at the latest.

[acs85]

Metro-North was thinking about making a connection to Penn Station via the Hudson Connection or the Hell Gate Line.

http://mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/planning/psas/overview.htm

It makes a lot of sense to me.
a.) Metro-North could expand its ridership base by have service deeper in Midtown and farther west in Manhattan;

b.) there are few if any construction costs (after all, both lines are already in use by Amtrak);

c.) it will patch up that little soft spot in the NE Corridor & make transferring much easier (I've done that NJ-CT trip a few times, & hopping subways isn't really convenient, esp. @ night);

But MN hasn't said much of anything about it lately. Does anyone know what's going on?

[NJD8598]

I remembered following a thread a while ago about the whole thing. Its pretty long so if you read through the pages I'm sure you'll see whats going on with the project. I have a general idea but I dont know the specifics and dont have time for a long post, so heres the link, the thread is on page 4 or 5 I think.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8011

Edit: Now that I look again it seems to focus mostly on tracks and all, but check it out anyways, I'm sure there will still be useful info.

[RedSoxSuck]

Don't bet on this happening. GCT is, at least for the time being, operating below capacity. NYP is operating above capacity, which is the primary reason for ESA. It is not to give commuters the option of arriving on the east side. MNR running to NYP would serve NO purpose other than giving passengers the option of arriving on the west side. Given that there is NO room at NYP during rush hour, there is no point ot the project. If the intention is to offer only weekend/off peak NYP service, then it is pure pork.

There is also a tiny little 3rd rail issue to overcome.....

[MN Jim]

Eventually, after ESA is up and running, it may happen. That's why the specification for the M8s currently includes compatibility with Penn Station (as well as the Shore Line, east of New Haven).

[RPM2Night]

There is also a tiny little 3rd rail issue to overcome.....

Does the LIRR and MNRR use different 3rd rail formats?

[Nester]

Don't bet on this happening. GCT is, at least for the time being, operating below capacity. NYP is operating above capacity, which is the primary reason for ESA. It is not to give commuters the option of arriving on the east side. MNR running to NYP would serve NO purpose other than giving passengers the option of arriving on the west side. Given that there is NO room at NYP during rush hour, there is no point ot the project. If the intention is to offer only weekend/off peak NYP service, then it is pure pork.

GCT's track/slot capacity will not be affected by ESA. The plan is to give LIRR trains their own terminal *underneath* the existing GCT structure.

BTW, Penn Access for MN would give MN riders direct connection to NJT trains and non-Empire/NEC Amtrak trains for the riders who don't live on those lines (Hudson and New Haven, respectively).

LIRR has had their eye on an East Side terminal since the late 60s (the original plan was for a transit center at 41st and 3rd) since they've known for decades that there are plenty of riders who would choose to go there rather than Penn Station since it is closer to their jobs. Even when they tried to "price-out" Penn Station, riders still chose it over Flatbush Avenue.

If you can recall, the 63rd St. tunnel was designed with this in mind, not access to GCT.

Nester

[DutchRailnut]

ESA will not free up spots in Penn station, the ESA project will add trains going to Manhattan and may free up spots for LIRR to run more Dual modes into Penn station.
LIRR never stated they would run less trains into Penn station.
If slots were to become available in Penn station the first right of refusal goes to NJT.
The slots into Penn station are owned by Amtrak and assigned to LIRR, MTA does not own the slots.