• NYSW Passenger Service Restoration

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: Tadman, nick11a, Kaback9, ACeInTheHole

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  by michaelk
 
amazed that this thread is still open. (especially since some- no not cruiser- literally have started calling people moron's even after being warned)

anyway.

I'm new here- but my 2 cents is that cruiser is the simon cowel (sp?) of railroad.net

He can be a little blunt, direct, probably grating at times. But he knows what he is talking about factually.

I guess I it may just be that I haven’t incurred his wrath so maybe I’m skewed but honestly I think I haven’t incurred his wrath because I haven’t spoken out of my rear just yet.
  by uzplayer
 
waldwickrailfan wrote:uzplayer, he's not trying to win the argument. he works for NJT and knows a lot more than almost all of us. i would believe Cruiser, Jim, jt, just to name a few, to some other people, at least in this forum. there is no need to argue with employees. it is most likly pointless.
I'm fine with them knowing more about the inner confines of how NJT works and citing that they are employees. What I do not like is the arrogance and rudeness that accompanies it. It's fine to give an opinion and have a healthy debate...but look at the previous posts.. Cruiser crossed the line way before me. Just because he's an NJT employee, does not give him the right to belittle the opinions of others.

Employee of NJT or not, knowledgeable or not, the one thing that will always get under my skin is arrogance and rudeness. Can we have a difference of opinion? Sure. Can we have two separate sets of facts? Absolutely. Should it be accompanied by arrogance and rudeness? Absolutely not. I might post some harsh things...but at the end, I will respect someone if they deliver facts without the attitude. Many others have including the two you mentioned (jim / jt as NJT employees.) Cruiser is the only one I have a problem with.

On another note, I am done with cruiser at this point. There are plenty more knowledgeable people on this board that will discuss the information versus discussing and then wrapping information in arrogance. Also, to those who found this annoying, my apologies. I tend not to get into arguments back and forth like this on message boards. For those who found this amusing, glad I can accommodate. :D
  by NYSW3022
 
uzplayer wrote: Good... I'm getting a headache from reading all of your idiotic responses. All you are trying to do is win the argument at this point. Sorry... Not happening.

You really are are a moron. It's called a multi-pronged attack. The citizens support the service, NJT supports it, the politicians then need to support it.
I've seen people banned for less on these boards. Cruiser has been delivering counter arguments to your arguments, which is the point of a debate. What is going to happen when you take your cause public and the mayor of some town opposes your opinion? Are you going to call his responses idiotic and call him a moron? The moment a debate sinks itself into name calling, that person loses the high ground. You have lost the high ground. If this is to go forward I would ask the believers in this cause, do you really want someone like this representing you? This could be the difference between the project getting political support in a town like Stockholm vs. another hostile Sparta on your hands. Just a thought.
  by sixty-six
 
uzplayer wrote:
waldwickrailfan wrote:uzplayer, he's not trying to win the argument. he works for NJT and knows a lot more than almost all of us. i would believe Cruiser, Jim, jt, just to name a few, to some other people, at least in this forum. there is no need to argue with employees. it is most likly pointless.
I'm fine with them knowing more about the inner confines of how NJT works and citing that they are employees. What I do not like is the arrogance and rudeness that accompanies it. It's fine to give an opinion and have a healthy debate...but look at the previous posts.. Cruiser crossed the line way before me. Just because he's an NJT employee, does not give him the right to belittle the opinions of others.

Employee of NJT or not, knowledgeable or not, the one thing that will always get under my skin is arrogance and rudeness. Can we have a difference of opinion? Sure. Can we have two separate sets of facts? Absolutely. Should it be accompanied by arrogance and rudeness? Absolutely not. I might post some harsh things...but at the end, I will respect someone if they deliver facts without the attitude. Many others have including the two you mentioned (jim / jt as NJT employees.) Cruiser is the only one I have a problem with.

On another note, I am done with cruiser at this point. There are plenty more knowledgeable people on this board that will discuss the information versus discussing and then wrapping information in arrogance. Also, to those who found this annoying, my apologies. I tend not to get into arguments back and forth like this on message boards. For those who found this amusing, glad I can accommodate. :D
You accuse cruiser of being rude, arrogant, etc. Name calling doesn't help your cause. So much for taking the high road.
  by Uzi-Cat
 
Cruiser is one of the better people in management. This is coming from someone who generally has nothing good to say about NJT management. He is ALWAYS welcome in my cab. Many people on the railroad feel that way as well. Cruiser has facts to back up his arguments which come directly from his work experience and position. Nobody is afraid of him at work in anyway (if you saw him you would really not be afraid :) ). It might make you feel better thinking that he has no real responsibilities or friends at NJT but that just simply isn't the case. Suggesting so just shows your ignorance and pettiness. I don't know any other RR.net member capable of delivering more "facts" than Cruiser. If you don't like the delivery method that is just too bad. Wipe the tears and move on.
  by nick11a
 
Look, ladies and gentleman.....

Since some of you obviously aren't happy with how things are run in here, let me recap:

If somebody is trolling or attacking a person (calling a person an idiot directly, the like, and worse), they are dealt with directly and posts are modified. If after talking to them, there is no improvement, warnings can be issued leading to time out and to a ban.

SPEAKING AS OF PRESENT, what we have in here is a heated debate with both sides taking exception. In regards to Cruiser, while he may be very curt and at times may come off as condascending, we, the moderatos and administration find his conversations in here to be acceptable. I don't always agree with what he says and at times he's pushed me around a bit; I view it as friendly and productive debating; granted, some of you may not. He may walk a dangerous line and may have been wrong in the past, but, we are past that.

Bottom line: Cruiser loves to debate. Many of you choose to engage him in debate. That is your perogative; please, don't come crying to me about this. But, while his opinions may seem overbearing, in most cases, I personally find him truthful in what he says. I will not censor people's opinions just because they are very forceful in them. If there is foul play, Jeff Smith, Kaback9 and I will step in. If you have an issue with his attitude, bring it up to him or to one of the admins/mods. Just bear through it all that you can attract more bees with honey than with vinegar.

I only discuss this here as a lot of you feel very comfortable bringing this up in public; this is not appropriate. If you have exception to this, please, let us not discuss it in here. That is all I have to say about that. If we can't move on with this, then I will shut this down for a short time to cool us off.
  by nick11a
 
Well, I have received pms, e-mails and even a phone call about people agreeing with the admins/mods and myself and people against it.

Considering the division, let me lock this one up and consult higher powers.... again.
  by Jeff Smith
 
NYSW3022 wrote:
uzplayer wrote: Good... I'm getting a headache from reading all of your idiotic responses. All you are trying to do is win the argument at this point. Sorry... Not happening.

You really are are a moron. It's called a multi-pronged attack. The citizens support the service, NJT supports it, the politicians then need to support it.
I've seen people banned for less on these boards. Cruiser has been delivering counter arguments to your arguments, which is the point of a debate. What is going to happen when you take your cause public and the mayor of some town opposes your opinion? Are you going to call his responses idiotic and call him a moron? The moment a debate sinks itself into name calling, that person loses the high ground. You have lost the high ground. If this is to go forward I would ask the believers in this cause, do you really want someone like this representing you? This could be the difference between the project getting political support in a town like Stockholm vs. another hostile Sparta on your hands. Just a thought.
Regarding the banning, I've banned very few users (not including spammers) in the time I've been admin here; slightly less than a year. I think at most I've banned five, maybe ten, permanently. Most were due to "flagrant fouls" where the behavior was abusive or included moderator abuse (call me a Nazi, and you'll find out what I"m talking about); some were erratic non-sensical behavior. Members who frequent the NJT board know who I'm talking about.

I'd like to think I've loosened things up a bit here. The aim is not to sanitize the discussion, but to facilitate it. Sometimes we succeed. Sometimes we don't.

As for this thread, Nick has it exactly right; personal attacks are not tolerated. I reviewed the last two pages at his request. For now, I will not issue warnings. I've seen it on both ends of this argument, whether it's a condescending tone, or pejorative terms (moron, idiot, etc.), expressed frustrations at people with alleged poor reading comprehension, people talking past each other just ot make a point, as well as unfounded accusations of malingering on the job.

Look, we like a collegial atmosphere on here. But as I've said on other threads that have gotten a lot more heated than this. Go read the Conway Scenic thread in New England Railfan. Read the Downeaster Thread in Amtrak. The former was very contentious, but with moderation, we've gotten some good points out of it. It took a while to get there, though. The latter (Downeaster) thread has a lot of disagreements, but the discussion manages to remain polite and on point, without ever degenerating into "you're a doody head". I always point to the Downeaster thread as to how a discussion with opposing viewpoints should be conducted.

It's not always going to be rainbows and leprachauns, lollipops, milk and cookies. Sometimes, you're just not going to be able to play in the same sand box. Agree to disagree and move on. Leave the hyperbole' and ad hominem stuff at home.

No need for anyone to explain themselves or anything; we're all passionate about what we do or how we feel. I"m going to leave this locked for a while. If there are any developments, PM a moderator or me, and we'll unlock. But for now, everyone, just take a deep breathe and relax.

And, of course, compliments to Nick and Kaback for moderating this forum. I haven't had to come on here in quite some time, except to ask for photoshopped P42s as the Space Shuttle.
  by Jeff Smith
 
One additional note; many employees of NJT or transit in general post on these forums. They may do so openly, or out in the open, or somewhere in between (an open secret or known to just some).

Keep in mind they may not be able to post specific items without divulging who they are, or at least not without risk to their own careers. I understand the desire for more solid information, but the member may not be able to supply it.

I guard everyone's identity here jealously, without hesitation. One of our policies here has always been that unless you are a public figure (in the way a politician or celebrity is by legal doctrine), use of real names when discussing third parties is not permitted. Your identity is yours and yours alone to divulge. Some choose to do so, and some not. I'm fine either way.

Lastly, to clarify, I konw the "ban" comment was not directed at me. My style is different than in the past; no criticism is intended of how things were done previously.

Thanks again,

Jeff
  by uzplayer
 
Just for my education, as I understand that NJT / Metro North is using the NYSW Railline to cycle trainsets in and out, what is preventing NJT / Metro North from offering some sort of limited test service and picking up passengers at designated stops?

Since you are cycling sets up and down anyway, this might provide for a great real-world test to see if people would in fact ride from stops along the NYSW. Would also make up for some of the lost revenue moving trains to and from the Port Jervis Line on the NYSW.

Just a thought.
  by Jtgshu
 
And what happens when they rebuild and reopen the line and stop the shuttles?

Anyway, these are very rare moves, like maybe once a week up and back - not quite the headways that would lead to a lot of ridership. Might lead to a long, cold wait at a pile of rocks in the middle of nowhere waiting for a train.....
  by Roadgeek Adam
 
Jtgshu wrote:And what happens when they rebuild and reopen the line and stop the shuttles?

Anyway, these are very rare moves, like maybe once a week up and back - not quite the headways that would lead to a lot of ridership. Might lead to a long, cold wait at a pile of rocks in the middle of nowhere waiting for a train.....
We build new Motorailers and pretend the railroad that was once here didn't help.
  by Passaic River Rat
 
uzplayer wrote:Just for my education, as I understand that NJT / Metro North is using the NYSW Railline to cycle trainsets in and out, what is preventing NJT / Metro North from offering some sort of limited test service and picking up passengers at designated stops?

Since you are cycling sets up and down anyway, this might provide for a great real-world test to see if people would in fact ride from stops along the NYSW. Would also make up for some of the lost revenue moving trains to and from the Port Jervis Line on the NYSW.

Just a thought.
Not a bad thought. But here are a few more:
There are no real passenger facilities along the line. Having people get on and off without good station platforms is not a huge risk, but it is a risk. With not much of a payoff to NS or CSX.
Where would the people go? The two trains meet at CP-Hudson Junction. It is not like they can go for a ride to Hoboken in the morning then go back home in the evening.
Even if these people wanted to go to CP-HJ, they would not get there quickly.

As a railfan, I can understand your thinking. But as a realist, there is no reason to treat these moves as anything other than equipment moves.
  by bk77
 
No signal system either. Even if you ran 2 trains, you would have to right form D after form D to keep them moving... might be okay for freight trains, not very efficient for commuter trains running on to the minute schedule. Not to mention crews would have to get qualified which may not be worth NJT's time considering it would be temporary service (SHOULD take no more than a year to get regular service back). Also to reiterate what was said about stations... the ones that still exist are all privately owned. Approaching each individual owner about station/land/parking use, insurance policies, etc., sounds like more trouble then MNCR/NJT would want to put up with. Also, the NYSW is a very non-direct, zig-zag railroad from Hudson Junct. The passengers would actually do better by driving to Suffern or Ramsey and taking a train from there.

Of course it would be neat if they did do something in the mean time, however it just sounds a lot of things to consider for service that would only be temporary.
  by airman00
 
You would think in a emergency type situation (as this is due to damage from Irene) that you could cut through the red tape. That is at least to run something temporary if neccesary.
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