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Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

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 #224718  by Irish Chieftain
 
Why do they bother, since it's in the "not gonna happen" category and there is no budget for dual-mode locos...? Seems to me like they should pack it in, build a second Waterfront Connection track and start diverting a lot of NEC trains into Hoboken instead Image

As for Lehrter Station in Berlin, the cost to build it was about $853 million (wasn't a typo).

 #224720  by hsr_fan
 
I have never seen a more frustrating, agonizingly slow, and seemingly hopeless pair of projects than MOM and the Lackawanna Cutoff. I grew up in Monmouth County hearing about MOM for years, and I've been working up here in northeast Pennsylvania for 6 years now, hearing about service to Scranton being "right around the corner" since I got here! I'm 30 years old now, and I doubt I'll see either project get anywhere by the time I'm 50!

Maybe NJ Transit should just acquire a couple of old RDC's and start running on the existing track from Red Bank to Lakewood. It would be better than nothing, which is what all these studies have gotten us so far.

 #224730  by Irish Chieftain
 
Track is not safe for pax operation.

 #224733  by hsr_fan
 
Not safe? You mean it's worse than even the loop of track at Allaire State Park? Even that track carries passengers! :-D

 #224744  by njt4172
 
hsr_fan wrote:Not safe? You mean it's worse than even the loop of track at Allaire State Park? Even that track carries passengers! :-D
LOL, funny!
:-D
How about when the Whippany Railway Musuem does their Santa and Easter Bunny trips?? Some of the Whippany line is less to be desired....
 #251061  by northjerseybuff
 
What are the scenarios for lines. From what I gather they're are 2 possible ones? What would be a list of stations on both lines. where would the end of each line be?
How far along are we with this project?
thanks

 #251145  by Tom V
 
There are actually three proposed routes, all three originate in Lakehurst Ocean County and run North to Farmingdale in Monmouth County. From Farmingdale the line splits into two, one line runs North through Tinton Falls and Eatontown into Red Bank where it joins the NJCL.

The second line runs Northwest into Freehold Borough where the line again splits, one line goes North through Marlboro and into Matawan where it would join the NJCL. The Second line runs West from Freehold through Englishtown/Manalapan into Jamesburg/Monroe (Middlesex County) and connects with the Northeast Corridor in South Brunswick.

So the three choices are:

Lakehurst-Farmingdale-Red Bank
Lakehurst-Farmingdale-Matawan
Lakehurst-Farmingdale-South Brunswick

I live in Manalapan along the portion of MOM to South Brunswick, I've lived here and Marlboro almost all my life (30 years). I have followed this closely for a long time, living here for 30 years I've seen Western Monmouth County grow from a rural bedroom community to a very affluent and crowded Suburb.

Here's my take,

The Lakehurst-Red Bank route is the least favorable because it's too far from Western Monmouth County towns of Freehold, Manalapan, Marlboro and the whole Route 9 corridor which is the emphasis behind the MOM route. The Lakehurst-Red Bank route is also too close to the NJCL and Garden State Parkway, plus between Farmingdale and Red Bank the line runs through Monmouth County's Landfill, Earle Naval Weapons Station etc. Not alot of development near the line in that area, thats why they put the Landfill there.

The Lakehurst-Matawan route is better than the Lakehurst-Red Bank route because it serves Freehold, however living in the area I know the ROW very well and it's been encroached upon seriously by overdevelpment. Of the three proposed lines this route is the only one that is not active, the tracks were torn up decades ago and the route is now a bike trail, from a strictly geographical point of view this route looks like the best choice however when you look at the over development issue it's really not the best choice.

The best choice in my opionion being someone who has grown up here and would use the line is the Lakehurst-South Brunswick route.

Here's the key points for the South Brunswick route:

Serves all the major Ocean, Monmouth, Middlesex population and employment centers. There's potential not just for trips to Newark/Hoboken/Manhattan but intra State trips to New Brunswick.

Serves Communities that have had their population double in the last 10 years, towns such as Freehold, Manalapan, Monroe, South Brunswick.

The only drawback is that the route travels West before traveling North, however the trip would travel a good portion of the route over the Northeast Corridor. If the train made express runs from South Brunswick to Newark Penn during rush hour the travel time of the South Brunswick line is very competitive to the other options via the NJCL.

Here's my take on where the station stops would be for MOM trains along the South Brunswick route.

Lakehurst-Lakewood-Howell/Farmingdale/Route 195- Freehold Township Route 33- Freehold Borough- Englishtown/Manalapan- Jamesburg/Monroe-Dayton/South Brunswick-New Brunswick-Newark Penn and perhaps Hoboken.

[/quote]

 #251153  by transit383
 
Tom V wrote:The Lakehurst-Red Bank route is the least favorable because it's too far from Western Monmouth County towns of Freehold, Manalapan, Marlboro and the whole Route 9 corridor which is the emphasis behind the MOM route. The Lakehurst-Red Bank route is also too close to the NJCL and Garden State Parkway, plus between Farmingdale and Red Bank the line runs through Monmouth County's Landfill, Earle Naval Weapons Station etc. Not alot of development near the line in that area, thats why they put the Landfill there.
Agreed that this line passes through pretty much the middle of nowhere. Not much development along the line, aside from some offices up in Eatontown. Competing roadways would be NJ-34 and CR-547, both of which aren't extremely heavily used and traffic isn't horrible on them (except for the southbound morning rush when you're sitting in the backups from the circle where NJ-33 splits from NJ-34 and CR-547 crosses over). Up towards Eatontown, this routing would also compete with the NJ-18 Freeway and that's a clear loss for the train.

 #251361  by baju
 
Ive lived in monmouth county since 1955 when trains were still going to Trenton. I can see the demand for people going to northern NJ and NYC.
There is never any mention of trains going south to Trenton again. I commute on 195 and there is a large amount of traffic going to Trenton from Monmouth and Ocean counties (state workers I assume). Has any discusion of this possibility ever been brought up by njarp or any other group? I rode the train back in 1961 there were 2 passenger cars and all the seats were filled. The population today is probably 5 times what it was back then. I have a feeling that the demand is there today.

 #251373  by CJPat
 
Baju wrote: I commute on 195 and there is a large amount of traffic going to Trenton from Monmouth and Ocean counties (state workers I assume).
Is that why my wallet feels so light when I ride I-195? Because I am financing all those government drones riding alongside of me?

All kidding aside, It would be interesting to have something like the Sea Girt to Trenton line brought back. Unfortunately, that ship is probably sailed a looong time ago.

 #251412  by PRRTechFan
 
Tom V, your explanation of MOM routing was excellent. The Red Bank route would probably be the easiest to upgrade. The track is intact and I believe it still sees some freight service.

The Matawan route is the least intact and has seen massive residential development along the old ROW. While I think that the ROW might still be intact, that "massive" development is development after development after development of humongus multi-million dollar homes as close as 50 feet from the ROW. Can you hear the screams when somebody points to their back yards and says "railroad"; even though the railroad was there 100 years before the homes. <sigh>

The Monmouth Junction route is largely intact with existing rails to Freehold, although I do not know what condition that track is really in or the last time it saw a train. The worst section is from east of Freehold to Farmingdale. While all of the ROW is there, the roadbed and rails are either missing or buried and overgrown to the point of being invisible. Not terribly difficult to upgrade, but unable to take a work train or even a track car at this time.

I have always liked the Monmouth Junction route, for the same reason just mentioned by Baju (...hmmm, another participant from Manasquan; we must have, maybe three of us now?... :wink: ) and that is that it provides the possibility of much more convenient access west to Trenton from Central Jersey; and if Amtrak would just "get over" the legal issues, direct NJT access to Philadelphia again.

To travel west of Trenton via Amtrak requires either an NJCL trip to Newark, or to NYP if the Amtrak train originates there; or a ride/drive to Metropark, which isn't too bad. A train from here direct to Philadelphia, or even with a change at Monmouth Junction as long as it was convenient, could not help but attract more riders. When Tom V mentioned "Howell/Farmingdale/Route 195" as a possible station, something immediately struck home: I-195. Can you say "park and ride"...?

Although I have not found a definitive article or map from the era, I have reason to believe that the line once ended at Monmouth Junction in a "wye", allowing trains to travel to or from the branch from north or south. Only the connection to the north exists today, but looking at recent aerial maps leads me to believe the opposite side of the wye could easily be constructed.

Another thought to ponder is that the Monmouth Junction route does not cross the Raritan River bridge. In the event of an extensive bridge outage, at least some substitute service would be available to NJCL customers.

Why not refurbush both the Red Bank and Monmouth Junction routes? Operate trains in opposite directions with the two routes as a big loop? This would open up the Route 1 corridor stations to NJCL stations and vice-versa without ill-timed changes at Rahway. In the event of a Raritan River bridge outage, run trains down to Monmouth Jct, over to Farmingdale, up to Red Bank ending at South Amboy; and back. The Bay Head-Long Branch shuttle could be extended to Red Bank and an alternate Farmindale-Lakehurst shuttle when Lakehurst trains were temporarily routed back up to South Amboy. Seems to me there are plenty of possibilities to serve a lot more customers in Central Jersey in a greater number of ways, and hedge your bets for alternate or backup service as well.
CJPat wrote:It would be interesting to have something like the Sea Girt to Trenton line brought back. Unfortunately, that ship has probably sailed a looong time ago.
I couldn't agree more; that route runs behind my property. I screamed when it was ripped up, but to no avail.

I believe the ROW still exists, or mostly exists; from Farmingdale to the Frequency Engineering property, which was the last freight customer. The ROW from there through the edge of Allaire Park and Spring Meadow Golf Club should not be a problem, although the former bridge over the Parkway was replaced with a bicycle bridge. There are also now water and sewer trunk lines buried down the center of the old ROW. Do not know how compatible that would be rail traffic overhead. There may be some encroachment near the Allenwood General Store, but I believe the route is again good to Rt. 35 in Wall. There has been development along the ROW in Wall, but the ROW exists to North Main Street in Manasquan; it is in fact a bicycle trail. From North Main Street in Manasquan to the NJCL is where the route has been considerably blocked; probably about 10-12 homes and businesses right on or too close to the old ROW. Install a new at-grade crossing on Rt. 71 and cut a swath through the storage warehouses and/or the Lukoil gas station, and you have again reached the NJCL. Has the ship passed? Probably. While the route is unlikely, it is not yet absolutely impossible.
 #251537  by Douglas John Bowen
 
With all respect to the breakdown and roundup of ideas (some excellent) vis a vis the MOM proposal, NJ-ARP -- MOM's author -- submits that there's only one "true" MOM. And it serves New Brunswick.

A "loop route" is fine by us in theory, as long as it doesn't preclude two-way service to and from New Brunswick from all MOM points. Bypass New Brunswick? Not if NJ-ARP can help it.

We'd also respectfully disagree with the contention that "no one" brings up Trenton or Philadelphia when discussing MOM. NJ-ARP does, at each and every street festival we attend in Middlesex County every summer. Say "no one official" and NJ-ARP might concur.

We say "might," because even New Jersey Transit is using "central Jersey access" as a reason to restore/resume some kind of Clocker service (run by NJT itself) to 30th Street Station Philadelphia. MOM actually might fit in nicely with that -- and it's remotely possible that NJ Transit actually sees that. If not, NJ-ARP will diplomatically point that out.

 #251560  by rhemler
 
The Red Bank route would probably be the easiest to upgrade. The track is intact and I believe it still sees some freight service.
This route is still used by Conrail they run two weekly trains The trains for the most part goes all the way down to Lakehurst. Conrail also just finished doing tie replacement in the from lakehurt to lakewood.

I would like the to see the train end connecting somewhere on the NEC that would make the trip faster I would think cause of the high sppeds allowed on NEC and It would make it easier for people in the ocean county Area to commute to philadelphia. MAybe they could run an express to 30th street doing the rush hours I know alot of people that live in the Area that commute to philly each day

 #251692  by CJPat
 
After MOM gets established through to Monmouth Junction, how about adding a rail connectior south on the NEC to send trains to Trenton. The real answer would probably be a transfer at North Brunswick or Jersey Ave and then grab a train south.

If MOM does get built and they have trains travelling to atleast NWK, wouldn't they need to double track down Lakehurst to permit adequate quantity of trains? Waiting for a train to make a return trip would put the cyclic rate fairly low.

 #251729  by rhemler
 
I don't think double tracking to lakhurst is an option The cost wouldn't be worth the amount of people traveling. All they would have to worry about is from lakhurst to monmouth juction. I would asume that when the train gets to lakehurst the train going north would go. I am really not sure cause it would depend on the travel time between lakehurst and monmouth juction. They could also have the trains meet at a station where their is a siding.
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