Railroad Forums 

  • Discussion: Efficacy of Long Distance Trains

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1555012  by Gilbert B Norman
 
mtuandrew wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:53 am True, but Amtrak will certainly be addressed in his (Joe's) potential first year. Probably as part of a nationwide stimulus based on his Build Back Better plans. Depending on his SecTrans and what sort of Congress he has, I expect him to be quite aggressive on expanding and improving passenger rail (and infrastructure generally.) ......He wants to spread money widely too, so LD service is a good way to do so.
"I'll buy" the first part of your captioned quote, Mr. Stephens. Look for Gateway to be funded and digging commenced. The SecTrans would be Joe's pick, and if he has the opportunity to appoint one with transportation credentials, as distinct from a "reward", then all transportation interests will be benefitted.

Now regarding the second portion. I don't know if any Bush43 appointees remain, but there are still Obama appointees remaining on the Amtrak Board. I believe they want the LD's gone, and Joe @ 1600 notwithstanding, "it's time". I can only reiterate, from having "been there" on A-Day (not high up, just a trainee), they were to have been gone in five years.
 #1555022  by mtuandrew
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:39 amNow regarding the second portion. I don't know if any Bush43 appointees remain, but there are still Obama appointees remaining on the Amtrak Board. I believe they want the LD's gone, and Joe @ 1600 notwithstanding, "it's time". I can only reiterate, from having "been there" on A-Day (not high up, just a trainee), they were to have been gone in five years.
We were supposed to have won the Vietnam War and Richard Nixon was supposed to have served into 1977 as well. A lot was supposed to happen in the 1970s that didn’t :wink:

And a board is fine, but a President of the United States can direct its actions if he (and likely she, within the decade) so chooses. I maintain that we will see restoration of the network pre-October.
 #1555068  by David Benton
 
mtuandrew wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:04 pm
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:39 amNow regarding the second portion. I don't know if any Bush43 appointees remain, but there are still Obama appointees remaining on the Amtrak Board. I believe they want the LD's gone, and Joe @ 1600 notwithstanding, "it's time". I can only reiterate, from having "been there" on A-Day (not high up, just a trainee), they were to have been gone in five years.
We were supposed to have won the Vietnam War and Richard Nixon was supposed to have served into 1977 as well. A lot was supposed to happen in the 1970s that didn’t :wink:

And a board is fine, but a President of the United States can direct its actions if he (and likely she, within the decade) so chooses. I maintain that we will see restoration of the network pre-October.
Not to mention the oil crisis's, most relevant to transport.
We've had female prime ministers since 1997, England since 1979, worlds first in 1960 . Time to catch up !, LOL.
I wonder if a new set of Battleground states may change the attitude to LD trains ? I'm thinking of the likes of Georgia, a lot of people moving in form other states , and crying out for better rail service.
 #1555072  by electricron
 
Why should southerners listen to displaced Yankees when it comes to subsidizing trains with high taxes. A gallon of gasoline today was $1.75 in Texas. It should be almost as low in Georgia, if not lower. Why are all the Yankees moving south, could the ultimate reason be the high taxes up north?
 #1555078  by Gilbert B Norman
 
David Benton wrote: I'm thinking of the likes of Georgia, a lot of people moving in from other states , and crying out for better rail service.
Mr. Benton, I wish the advocacy community could begin to accept that the railroad rights of way away from specific regions, are owned by investors who seek a maximum return from their investment. They are not any kind of public highway such as they are in many foreign jurisdictions - and as the advocacy community would like to see here.

As more US roads adopt the principles of Precision Railroading, which certainly has a favorable impact on the bottom line, the more intrusive any train not moving with the flow of traffic will become. The most indicative example of that is The Canadian, which is at the mercy of the traffic flows on the road where Precision Railroading was born.

I think The Canadian "is done for" and will not return from its "COVID hiatus". This is why I hold the Amtrak tri-weekly frequencies are the first step in a long "slog" to be rid of the Amtrak LD's.

disclaimer: author long UNP; an S&P "outperform" YTD 20.
Last edited by Gilbert B Norman on Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
 #1555088  by eolesen
 
mtuandrew wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:04 pm And a board is fine, but a President of the United States can direct its actions if he (and likely she, within the decade) so chooses. I maintain that we will see restoration of the network pre-October.
That seems like interference to me... but regardless, the Executive branch can't authorize new money.
 #1555097  by mtuandrew
 
eolesen wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:02 amThat seems like interference to me... but regardless, the Executive branch can't authorize new money.
How’s it interference? Chain of command goes President -> SecTrans -> Amtrak board and president. Obviously Congress is the only body that can authorize the budget, but the executive branch often has some leeway with how that money is spent.

I suppose I could be wrong and a potential President Biden could solely focus on corridors, or a re-elected(?) President Trump could do something as drastic as dissolving the corporation, or both could simply ignore Amtrak until COVID is a lower-priority issue.
 #1628510  by Gilbert B Norman
 
This is an open question from which I hope insightful discussion will develop.

First let me note that "I was there"; I was employed by a Class I Amtrak member road on A-Day. There was much skepticism regarding the future of Amtrak, and the washroom walls heard "give it five years". So far as the Long Distance Trains went, that five years were their life expectancy.

But yet, here we are more than fifty two years after A-Day, and there appears no end in sight for the LD's. In fact, there are plans to reequip the existing trains with new rolling stock - and with more "bells and whistles" to comply with the ADA Act.

It is no secret, at least away from the "it's just accounting fiction crowd" (I really wonder how many of them are CPA's) that the LD's lose money and essentially have no expectation of ever making some. The passenger miles of transportation they provide are simply infinitesimal. Away from the Northeast Corridor (OK; possibly several of the Locally funded ones as well) and outside the train riding community, really who'd miss them?

So how say we discuss here with maturity and respect how have the LD's hung on and with no end in sight.

Is it because politicians discovered that they are comparatively inexpensive "rolling pork barrels", is there really a no other alternatives such as I will acknowledge is the case in Canada? Is there something about this "see America up close in a relaxed way" that justifies their continuance?

Enquiring mind would like to know.

disclaimer: author rode, and enjoyed, many routes pre-A-Day
 #1628516  by rohr turbo
 
Partly I believe it's because this country is really spectacular once you get away from the strip malls and industrial parks. That beauty cannot be experienced at 35K ft, nor from the interstate clutching the steering wheel. There is something unique and wonderful about the experience of riding a train. Many people enjoy this, or dream of someday taking the trip. That attitude percolates up to elected representatives who advocate for their states' LDs to be continued.
 #1628526  by Ken W2KB
 
rohr turbo wrote: Mon Sep 04, 2023 1:02 pm Partly I believe it's because this country is really spectacular once you get away from the strip malls and industrial parks. That beauty cannot be experienced at 35K ft, nor from the interstate clutching the steering wheel. There is something unique and wonderful about the experience of riding a train. Many people enjoy this, or dream of someday taking the trip. That attitude percolates up to elected representatives who advocate for their states' LDs to be continued.
Though in my trips in the last 5 or 6 years, on the Southwest Chief and others about 90 percent of passengers seated in the Sightseer Lounge car simply were using their phones, tablets or laptop computers and rarely looked out the windows. :-(
 #1628529  by eolesen
 
It's the same reason that "essential air service" has survived for just about the same timeframe --- there's no such thing as a Congressional appetite to discontinue wasteful spending as long as there's a slice of the pie for local constituents which in turn results in something to argue every 24 months at the ballot box.

As long as there's pork, someone's going to be bringing home the bacon. Might as well be feeding it back to their states and districts.

Make the states fund all of it (be it EAS or Amtrak), and you'd see the proper rationalization of the network that's been overdue for ages.

Amtrak's success outside the Acela corridor is almost exclusively where the state funded corridors are.
 #1628536  by R36 Combine Coach
 
Apparently, as mentioned here and elsewhere, even GOP senators in western states wouldn't let LD service once a day cut in their states.

In 2015, a transportation bill amendment was proposed that would effectively eliminated EAS funding, but
yet it survives.

EAS often subsidizes small carriers (including Cape Air and Boutique), which depend on these contracts.
 #1628544  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Olesen, regrettably I couldn't agree with you more. Actually, if you have to have "pork", Amtrak LD is comparatively inexpensive when compared with what gets into the farm subsidy and rivers and harbors legislation. It's further "efficient pork" in that it can roll through many a legislative jurisdiction.

Now so far as Mr. R36's immediate, I've had one flight in this life likely covered by Essential Air. That was BOS to ACK on Cape Air. To me this was fun getting to see the Co-Pilot's flight controls on this Cessna 402. But there was a thirtysomething gal seated behind me who was "apprehensive". I kind of turned around to listen to her and her confession of "I'm scared". I said to her in a somewhat louder voice that "I've flown on DeHaviland Twin Otters (in Vietnam)". The Pilot heard me and says "hey, that's a big plane!" whic probably did nothing to allay her fears.

Suffice to say, the flight was without incident.

To close back on the rails, it is ironic that RPSA70 was enacted to replace some two thirds of the passenger trains forced on the industry by some hidebound Federal agency with a for-profit motive ostensibly with a quasi public private sector concern, that these LD trains that provide little economic value remain fifty two years later.
 #1628554  by Shortline614
 
Amtrak's long-distance trains are probably the best example of a "pork" project I can think of. A politician can easily point to a long-distance train as an easy example of "your tax dollars at work!" The very nature of long-distance trains also means they pass through plenty of localities with politicians ready to fight for their survival. When Amtrak tried to cut the Southwest Chief in two by instituting a bus segment over the Raton Pass portion, politicians rallied around the train and kept it running. Heck, I'm inclined to say that Amtrak outside of corridor services is mostly just pork.

The history of Amtrak is filled with "pork" trains that have lived or died based on the support of a few politicians. The various Virginia-West Virginia services backed by Senator Harley Staggers are the most famous of these.

This doesn't make the long-distance network invincible. Once Senator Staggers retired his trains were cut and the remnants rolled into other services. The network has slowly shrunk over the past 50+ years with various rounds of cuts being made every dozen years or so; however, with the renewed interest in American rail transportation in the last few years this trend might be reversed. Of course, there is the long-distance study but the restoration of the North Coast Hiawatha, and the extension of the Crescent to Dallas/Fort Worth is very likely to happen. It will be interesting to see how things turn out.

-Shortline
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