Discussion: Efficacy of Long Distance Trains

[David Benton]

What you guys consider "going left" , most of the rest of the western world consider providing basic human rights and needs. Hence , if this discussion was going on in europe you would add a zero or two to the $$$$. On the left side of the dot that is .

[rohr turbo]

Further, Precision Railroading... Any train out there, such as a scheduled passenger train, will severely disrupt that "op plan"

I fail to understand this part of GBN's argument. Wouldn't PSR handle all trains more efficiently? One of the central themes of PSR according to Wiki (I know, I know) is that freight trains run on fixed schedules LIKE passenger trains. With the advances in software, it sure seems that PSR could minimize Amtrak's interference with freight operations. Please tell me what I'm missing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_railroading

[lordsigma12345]

Further, Precision Railroading... Any train out there, such as a scheduled passenger train, will severely disrupt that "op plan"

I fail to understand this part of GBN's argument. Wouldn't PSR handle all trains more efficiently? One of the central themes of PSR according to Wiki (I know, I know) is that freight trains run on fixed schedules LIKE passenger trains. With the advances in software, it sure seems that PSR could minimize Amtrak's interference with freight operations. Please tell me what I'm missing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_railroading

I listened to a recent interview with Misters Flynn and Gardner where they indicated they felt PSR could actually help get better OTP in class I territory with cooperation and the performance metrics Amtrak is looking for .

[John_Perkowski]

Long story short...

Unless either:
- A petroleum shortage of the first magnitude, which limits auto and air transportation by a factor of 20, OR ...
- Pollution regulations which bankrupt the US flag carriers

Happens, passenger rail in the US, outside of the NEC and selected corridors, is the passenger pigeon in 1908.

It’s time to ask if the feddybux deserve a better home within Amtrak.

[Gilbert B Norman]

I fail to understand this part of GBN's argument. Wouldn't PSR handle all trains more efficiently?

I listened to a recent interview with Misters Flynn and Gardner where they indicated they felt PSR could actually help get better ....

Messrs. Lord and Rohr do have a point with regards to passenger trains and Precision Railroading.

However, that point is premised on that all trains "more or less" move at the same speed and that the train schedules call for having the traffic in the same direction during given segmrnts. It also has crews operating trains for, say, five hours in one direction, then at (again, "more or less") a train in the opposite direction meets so that the crews meet, swap trains, and are home some five hours later (two hours "pad" to keep everyone legal). Such a plan minimizes HAFHT pay (Held Away From Home Terminal, or "Alimony Pay", as it was known on my road) as well as Lodging.

Now a passenger train likes to operate at 79, and with certainty will have a schedule "against the grain" with the flow of freight traffic. That does not make for "marital bliss" between the two classes.

[WhartonAndNorthern]

Further, Precision Railroading... Any train out there, such as a scheduled passenger train, will severely disrupt that "op plan"

I fail to understand this part of GBN's argument. Wouldn't PSR handle all trains more efficiently? One of the central themes of PSR according to Wiki (I know, I know) is that freight trains run on fixed schedules LIKE passenger trains. With the advances in software, it sure seems that PSR could minimize Amtrak's interference with freight operations. Please tell me what I'm missing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_railroading

What PSR really meant to disciples of E. Hunter Harrison was cutting every last possible expense. The name came from the idea of eliminating the infrequent or small- and mid-sized unit trains and forcing that traffic on to manifest trains. What actually happens is that manifest trains become longer (longer than some of the sidings on a line), helper crews get eliminated (cost money), and double track gets pulled up. In short things get worse.

[Gilbert B Norman]

What actually happens is that manifest trains become longer (longer than some of the sidings on a line)....

I certainly agree with you there, Mr. Wharton. A "sawbuck" does "not exactly" make for Precision Railroading. There actually was an article in TRAINS that described the procedure so that I could understand it, but then, this is a discussion to be held over at the Class I Forum.

[WhartonAndNorthern]

I certainly agree with you there, Mr. Wharton. A "sawbuck" does "not exactly" make for Precision Railroading. There actually was an article in TRAINS that described the procedure so that I could understand it, but then, this is a discussion to be held over at the Class I Forum.

At the risk of sounding like an SNL sketch, I should have said Precision Scheduled Railroading is neither precision, nor scheduled, nor railroading! Discuss!

[RRspatch]

I certainly agree with you there, Mr. Wharton. A "sawbuck" does "not exactly" make for Precision Railroading. There actually was an article in TRAINS that described the procedure so that I could understand it, but then, this is a discussion to be held over at the Class I Forum.

At the risk of sounding like an SNL sketch, I should have said Precision Scheduled Railroading is neither precision, nor scheduled, nor railroading! Discuss!

I posted a reply to a post by Gilbert Norman over in the BNSF subforum concerning PSR. Basically BNSF has decided NOT to follow the other railroad sheep when it comes to PSR and therefor has retained more of it's traffic than the other three PSR Harrison disciples. In reality PSR is basically the new business fad of "asset stripping" to keep Wall $treet happy.

[RRspatch]

Long story short...

Unless either:
- A petroleum shortage of the first magnitude, which limits auto and air transportation by a factor of 20, OR ...
- Pollution regulations which bankrupt the US flag carriers

Happens, passenger rail in the US, outside of the NEC and selected corridors, is the passenger pigeon in 1908.

It’s time to ask if the feddybux deserve a better home within Amtrak.

The Peak Oil point has passed. Have you ever wondered why the major oil companies are suddenly falling over each other to get into "alternative energy"? The only reason there's a glut of oil currently is because the world eCONomy is in the toilet.

As airplanes it turns out they're one of the biggest contributors to CO2 emissions. There is already plans to limit short and medium haul flights in Europe as well as impose carbon taxes on flights. At least Europe have a largely electrified railroad network with high speed lines. You can ignore climate change all you want but remember climate change won't ignore you.

Keep the current system, add frequencies and feeder routes. Build on what we have.

[eolesen]

Every time we hear about "peak oil" someone discovers a new reserve which offers another 20-30 year supply... And that's just what's been discovered as retrievable. As technology improves, what's retrievable increases.

Oil companies are going into alternative energy to get the subsidies and tax credits.

Plans to limit flights and impose carbon taxes get talked about all the time, but in 20 years of watching airlines in Europe, it's yet to happen because just like the Green New Deal, once people see the price tag and potential negative economic impact, politicians almost always back off.

Besides, all this talk of climate change... where do you think the electricity is coming from in the US? Wind and solar can't provide what's needed for California without blackouts, and nobody is building nuclear.

If you want to focus on sustainables, try building a sustainable rail network. Long distance has been dying for 50+ years. Build the logical corridors up, and maybe you'd see travel habits change 50 years from now.

[Gilbert B Norman]

As airplanes it turns out they're one of the biggest contributors to CO2 emissions. There is already plans to limit short and medium haul flights in Europe as well as impose carbon taxes on flights........You can ignore climate change all you want but remember climate change won't ignore you.

Mr. Spatch, air transport will be depressed long after V-C Day (Victory over COVID Day; I'm not looking for that before 4Q '21) as businesses have finally learned what I could have told them during my first year in "Corporate America" - much of the travel is a waste of time and $$$. When "faces in the windows and fannies in the seats" DO return to '19 levels, a much greater percentage of such will be "price sensitive" leisure travelers.

Turbulent times ahead for both employees and investors (just as glad I have "nada" of such in my portfolio).

What environmental advocates need be concerned about is that "road trips" will be coming back into vogue. I think that those who have continued to travel through this COVID era have learned "it's not so bad". In fact, there is a "well to do" (just like anyone in my Village) family X the street from me for whom vacation trips have always started with the Livery Car to O'Hare. This past June, however, they rented an RV (did not take their Jeep in tow) and were off as far West as Salt Lake City (they're into hiking and mountain biking). She said to me - this guy who hasn't been further from home than five miles since "the beginning", "We'll do it again".

Unfortunately for the Green community, Teslas are "not exactly" conducive to "road trips".

But, the days of "hopping on the Super to the Coast" vanished likely 60 years ago in favor of the 707 and the "8" (air travelers back then simply referred to Douglas aircraft by the number). Despite what Greta may want, overland train travel is not coming back. The "product" in its present form, is simply not attractive and will (away from these sites) simply result in more "never agains" than any others.

[rohr turbo]

...and double track gets pulled up.

If this is true and widespread, then why not have Amtrak simply procure those second tracks for a token fee. ($1 per mile?)

The private railroads would see a great reduction in Amtrak interference (which we hear on this forum is costing them big $$), and a reduction in property taxes. Amtrak would put the trackage fee savings toward maintenance and some operational costs, but hopefully this would be a wash. Both parties have some redundancy for detouring, etc. OTP improves. Win-win.

At least that's my vision.

[mtuandrew]

If you’d only been there to say such in the late 1970s, rohr I would even have accepted a lease where the Feds paid property tax + $1 for said track.

[Arborwayfan]

The US could have European-level train service and train travel between all cities over 100,000 within 50 miles of another such city and still have no long distance trains and no trains in half the country. Europe's big train-travel market is in the few hour drive/short-hop flight market, not in anything on the scale of even the eastern LD train.