Viewliner II Delivery/Production

[bdawe]

You don't need an overnight Pennsylvanian; according to Amtrak, it's a "9 hour 20 minute" trip. That wouldn't make sense, even point to point. Barely time to put on lounge pants...

I'd like to think that an 8-9 hour sleeper could achieve some meaningful economies if you could structure it on the assumption of "everyone is going straight to bed" ie don't have to have attendants swap the chairs into beds just have it set up as beds at the get-go, and "eat off the train" so just a cafe for some snacks, or dare I say it an automat.

In that case, perhaps you could deliver a low-enough cost sleeper service for this to operationally pencil, though you still have the low-utilization problem

[west point]

Pittsburg could get an overnight sleeper. Just make it a sleeper from BOS on 65. 66. 67 drop sleeper at PHL and add it to a new Pennsylvanian from PHL to Pitt.

[Tadman]

You don't need an overnight Pennsylvanian; according to Amtrak, it's a "9 hour 20 minute" trip. That wouldn't make sense, even point to point. Barely time to put on lounge pants...

I'm on the fence on this issue. It might make more sense financially than a long multi-day sleeper run.
As of the now the schedule looks like: NYP (1:20 hours travel) PHL (2:10 hours travel) HBG (5:30 hours travel) PIT.

How about leave NYP 9p, PHL 10:30p, HBG 12:40, arrive PIT 6ish, occupy cabins til 7 or 8?

Now because it's such a late train, no need for diner, lounge, etc. No need for attendants to turn down beds, they're always down. Roomettes only. Showers at major stations, not on train. Perhaps a "service car" that can hold baggage, bikes, coffee maker, maybe an amenity counter like Surfliner business class has.

You also have a few seated coaches for the brave, or those looking for a late night ride NYP-PHL-HBG. Sleeper only for those riding to PIT.

This model could also work to places like Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal, etc... It's a much different model when all the pricey non-revenue stuff is removed.

[ApproachMedium]

Something that spun between PGH and HBG wouldnt be a bad idea. I think at least two to NYC would make sense, at least if not just Philly. As far as sleepers and stuff going to boston etc fat chance. You now exit the state supported service part, and then move into regular intercity stuff where amtrak would have to justify the cost and ridership and not expect a state to pay for it.

[Pensyfan19]

Ok. So overnight from NYP to Pittsburgh wouldn't make sense. Increased frequency between Philly and Pittsburgh definitely would make sense.

How about overnight service between Chicago and Kansas City, St. Paul, and/or Omaha? (they might use superliners but there's the possibility of single level equipment being used there. At least that's what I propose.)

[exvalley]

There are some issues with overnight trains to Canada:
1) Customs and immigration. I don't see them even considering the idea until pre-clearance facilities are built. Even if those are built, it may not make sense unless Canadian customs is done upon arrival in Montreal or Toronto.
2) The routes aren't terribly long, which means that most intermediate stations will have service at an unappealing hour of the day. There needs to be very healthy demand from the originating point to the endpoint;
3) Hotels in Montreal and Toronto are more reasonable than in New York City, which impacts the economics of a sleeper.

The Adirondack is a slow train, which would ironically work out well for sleeper service on this route.

[gokeefe]

I've been saying for a long time that some of these daylight trains should have over night counterparts. I think the ones that would really do well are the two trains to Canada.

It think the case for this is particularly strong with the Adirondack route given its shorter distance and pre-clearance facilities soon to be available in Montreal. A 9pm departure gets you to NYP at 8am the next day. That is a near perfect schedule for an overnight train. Amtrak could easily cover food service needs with the existing cafe car.

Also worth noting that the overnight Montreal Limited operated until A-Day.

[Jeff Smith]

Perhaps you could include in that going back to the Montrealer from the current Vermonter. And let's not forget the upcoming expanded Ethan Allen, although that is only planned for Burlington.

[Tadman]

I've been saying for a long time that some of these daylight trains should have over night counterparts. I think the ones that would really do well are the two trains to Canada.

It think the case for this is particularly strong with the Adirondack route given its shorter distance and pre-clearance facilities soon to be available in Montreal. A 9pm departure gets you to NYP at 8am the next day. That is a near perfect schedule for an overnight train. Amtrak could easily cover food service needs with the existing cafe car.

Also worth noting that the overnight Montreal Limited operated until A-Day.

You are on track here in my book. Also the nice thing about a night train is that they don't have to go as fast. Nobody is in a rush to get dumped off at NYP or Montreal at 3am, so slow it down to a CP-friendly schedule that arrives NYP at 8am like you said. Next question is, does this affect the trackage rights fees? If the train does 40-50 mph on CP/D&H and skips a few stops, does that make the slot more economical for CP?

[gokeefe]

Next question is, does this affect the trackage rights fees? If the train does 40-50 mph on CP/D&H and skips a few stops, does that make the slot more economical for CP?

I haven't seen an example of a contract but there are two things I am under the impression of ... 1. It's a fixed fee based on something like train miles and in some cases payments for enhanced maintenance. 2. These arrangements may not be uniform across the system.

[Greg Moore]

I've been saying for a long time that some of these daylight trains should have over night counterparts. I think the ones that would really do well are the two trains to Canada.

It think the case for this is particularly strong with the Adirondack route given its shorter distance and pre-clearance facilities soon to be available in Montreal. A 9pm departure gets you to NYP at 8am the next day. That is a near perfect schedule for an overnight train. Amtrak could easily cover food service needs with the existing cafe car.

Also worth noting that the overnight Montreal Limited operated until A-Day.

You are on track here in my book. Also the nice thing about a night train is that they don't have to go as fast. Nobody is in a rush to get dumped off at NYP or Montreal at 3am, so slow it down to a CP-friendly schedule that arrives NYP at 8am like you said. Next question is, does this affect the trackage rights fees? If the train does 40-50 mph on CP/D&H and skips a few stops, does that make the slot more economical for CP?

I've argued this for years, that in some cases, SLOWER is better.
Sure, we want the Acela or upcoming Avelia for places like the NEC, etc. But there's other places where a decent overnight train can make sense.
Right now, the Adirondack, while it has appeal as a siteseeing trip for me, has little appeal for business type travel from Albany to Montreal.

But give me an overnight in each direction, even if overnight is "leave Albany at 11:00 PM" that gets me to Montreal around breakfast time, I'm far more likely to take it. Heck, would make a nice day trip, night train up, visit, night train back.

Albany-Montreal is never going to be a "3-hour tour" so might as well make it a practical slower train. (I'd still keep the Adirondack though, people do like it for the site-seeing option).

[Tadman]

Next question is, does this affect the trackage rights fees? If the train does 40-50 mph on CP/D&H and skips a few stops, does that make the slot more economical for CP?

I haven't seen an example of a contract but there are two things I am under the impression of ... 1. It's a fixed fee based on something like train miles and in some cases payments for enhanced maintenance. 2. These arrangements may not be uniform across the system.

You're probably completely right about this as of today. But imagine of Dick Anderson or the new guy went to Omaha and Fort Worth and said "hey we're thinking about making our trains fit your routes better. No more 79mph sprints and then stops every hour. Now we want to run 40mph, drop a few stops, maybe wait in some sidings where convenient for you, just get us to the big city terminal before 8am".

Would the freight brass hand over a briefcase of cash? No. But it might lead to a new contract because all parties are negotiating in good faith to make something work.

[bostontrainguy]

So can we combine some of these ideas? How about after returning the sleepers (2) to the "Night Owl" it runs casually via the inland route NH-SPG-BOS. At Springfield a new section with sleeper runs north to Montreal.

It's doable and the population via central Mass is much more than along the shoreline.

[SouthernRailway]

For a trip such as NY-Montreal, one reason to take the train is that you can leave later than a flight would or you'd arrive earlier than a flight would.

So leaving NYC at 1am and arriving Montreal at 5am would be ideal, even if you can sleep longer than that period.

[rcthompson04]

Pittsburg could get an overnight sleeper. Just make it a sleeper from BOS on 65. 66. 67 drop sleeper at PHL and add it to a new Pennsylvanian from PHL to Pitt.

I brought this up on the Amtrak Expansion Thread... I think the easiest way to do it would be start the last Keystone of the night at NYP instead of 30th Street and originate the first Keystone of the morning that leaves Harrisburg at 5am at Pittsburgh around 1030pm with the engine change for both occurring at Harrisburg instead of 30th Street. Just throw a Viewliner or two plus a cafe car to the end of the train. The train at night would run flag stops between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh.