• Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: Tadman, nick11a, Kaback9, ACeInTheHole

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  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Good Lord, I started this now some sixteen years ago with the intent it be an "asked and answered".

NJT has far more "pressing" projects on which to use their quite finite funds. Establishing a new interstate route under Amtrak auspices is simply a no start. The desire for those higher income folk to reside in Sussex County, let alone Warren, is gone. The "Outter Boroughs" are "in" - children notwithstanding.

Let's just accept facts of life that continued discussion simply represents whipping a dead horse.

Moderators, this topic originator asks you "lock 'er up", or even kill it in its entirety.
  by andrewjw
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:35 pm Good Lord, I started this now some sixteen years ago with the intent it be an "asked and answered".

NJT has far more "pressing" projects on which to use their quite finite funds. Establishing a new interstate route under Amtrak auspices is simply a no start. The desire for those higher income folk to reside in Sussex County, let alone Warren, is gone. The "Outter Boroughs" are "in" - children notwithstanding.

Let's just accept facts of life that continued discussion simply represents whipping a dead horse.

Moderators, this topic originator asks you "lock 'er up", or even kill it in its entirety.
fortunately for us, the "topic originator" has no ownership of the discussion happening around here. if you don't want to read it, don't open it.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Yes Mr. Andrew, I hear you.

The topic has gone on too long and far from my intent. That it has is why I ask it be locked or killed.

You weren't around when I was the sole moderator of the Amtrak Forum ('02-'06), when what I said went. Even if many thought my rulings were arbitrary and capricious, as well as "anti-Amtrak", I had full support of the site's then owner. But it was how I ran my shop, and, had this topic been within my jurisdiction, I would have locked it many a moon ago.

So far as NJT and their overseers are concerned, the initiative is dead. So it should be around here.

I respect that young railfans like yourself must wonder why this beautifully engineered piece of railroad right of way cannot be used for a productive purpose. But the fact remains, that it serves no purpose in the movement of freight traffic, and for passenger, not many want to live out that way.
  by JoeG
 
Mr Norman, what you say is absolutely true. I will do my best to refrain from dead-horse whipping here. NJT is under-funded and apparently poorly managed. Since it pays less than MN or the LIRR it keeps losing engineers it has trained at great expense. It can ill afford a foamer's fantasy.

Good night.
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
The Lackawanna Cutoff project to Scranton would probably be considered a "beating a dead horse topic." I believe that the right of way between E. Stroudsburg and Scranton goes up mountains and that combined with the several curves would hinder travel times between Scranton and E. Stroudsburg.

The towns in Northeastern Pennsylvania are very spread out and the Martz and Greyhound Bus stations aren't in downtown areas. Many of the Martz buses stop in Delaware Water Gap, located a few miles outside of the Stroudsburgs. Even the buses that stop in Stroudsburg stop at park n ride lots closer to the highways like I-80. The Mt. Pocono Greyhound and Martz Station is in one bus station and it's located probably several hundred feet from where the Pocono Main right of way is. In fact, I think the Mt. Pocono Lackawanna Station building is along 611 next to the bus station. To be honest, many of the former train stations along the Pocono Main-I don't think they are very close to downtown areas. The line does pass through Tobyhanna and it looks like it's straight through there. It looks like the between Henryville and Mt. Pocono, the route takes indirect turns. Looking at googlemaps, I see that there is a 180 degree curve in Cresco and then a few miles to the west closer to Mt. Pocono, there is another 180 degree curve. From Mt. Pocono to Elmhurst, the right of way on a map appears to go a little more direct. After you go under 84, the 180 degree curves return. 180 degree curves and mainline passenger rail routes do not mix.

FYI, the fastest NYP-Dover train is weekday westbound 6641 which does the trip to Dover from NYP in an hour and twelve minutes. It doesn't stop at Secaucus Junction and after NWK Broad Street Station, it runs express to Summit. That's not bad for an M&E express train heading to Dover but NJT running only nonstop to Summit from NWK trains with the ultimate destinations of E. Stroudsburg or Scranton isn't going to cut it. The train will still take longer than driving on 80. When the Phoebe Snow ran on the M&E, that train made only the following stops-Brick Church, Summit, and Dover. That is a true super express on the M&E. Today, any express train should never skip Morristown as that station has several employers nearby and probably many of those people live well west of their, including in Northeastern Pennsylvania.
  by Backshophoss
 
This has been a time and materials project for NJT,being done "in house",due to "Christe Era" budget cuts in both ops and capital sides.
IT has and will take time to cleanup the battle damage. Andover seems to be the best place to install the Bumping Block for this project.
PA is too screwed up to fund SEPTA and the Pittsburg service. Scranton,forget it!
Does NJT want to go Head to Head with the Sierra Club again? May not be worth the time and $$$$$ needed this time around. :(
Time to cut loses is now.
  by photobug56
 
What do SEPTA and Pittsburgh have to do with this? It's a west Jersey and NEPA problem. So Christie made a mess of NJT. We know that, and we know that that mess needs to be cleaned up. But part of that mess was doing something that should have happened many years ago and still needs to be done.
  by pateljones
 
I believe this project is far from dead. It is active more than ever. Pennsylvania spent $200,000 on a new study and announced the cost of service Hoboken to Scranton is half what was predicted. Pennsylvania is moving forward. How can New Jersey leave a 20-mile gap from Andover to Pennsylvania after it spent $100 million to extend service to Andover.
  by JoeG
 
Looks like I'm still dead-horse beating.

The lower cost of the latest estimate is because it does not include some essential items.
I haven't seen any proposals where the train beats Martz.

Talgos are another non-starter. They won't fit existing high level platforms, they are incompatible with NJT's current rolling stock, and the NTSB thinks they are dangerous.
i never thought i'd be saying this, but Take The Bus! What if they spend a few hundred million on the railroad and rolling stock, etc and no one shows up to ride because the trains are slower than the bus? Well, there would always be a few of us foamers....
  by photobug56
 
Maybe they need to do it right, not do a half ass job. You do a tilt train but diesel, maybe dual mode. That would help. And maybe NJT needs to clean up its act, get scheduling done better. And the rail authorities in NEPA get track upgrade to a decent speed capability. There should be more than enough capacity for existing freight and these trains.
  by n2cbo
 
JoeG wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:19 pm Looks like I'm still dead-horse beating.

The lower cost of the latest estimate is because it does not include some essential items.
I haven't seen any proposals where the train beats Martz.

Talgos are another non-starter. They won't fit existing high level platforms, they are incompatible with NJT's current rolling stock, and the NTSB thinks they are dangerous.
i never thought i'd be saying this, but Take The Bus! What if they spend a few hundred million on the railroad and rolling stock, etc and no one shows up to ride because the trains are slower than the bus? Well, there would always be a few of us foamers....
Have you ever been stuck in I-80 traffic? I may be wrong, but I bet you haven't. I HAVE only a few times, since I don't live there, but I can't imagine having to go through that EVERY DAY. BOTH WAYS. You BET I would take the train if it were available if I lived there and had to commute. Even if I weren't a supporter of rail transport.
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
Running a connecting bus from Scranton to the East Stroudsburg Train Station would be more practical than running the train all the way to Scranton. In little or no traffic from East Stroudsburg to Scranton, even making the same stops that the train would make, the bus trip would probably take an hour to an hour and a quarter.
  by n2cbo
 
njt/mnrrbuff wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:29 pm Running a connecting bus from Scranton to the East Stroudsburg Train Station would be more practical than running the train all the way to Scranton. In little or no traffic from East Stroudsburg to Scranton, even making the same stops that the train would make, the bus trip would probably take an hour to an hour and a quarter.
Actually for commuters, that is a great idea, however, I would still like to see Amtrak service all the way from New York Penn to Chicago via Stroudsburg, Scranton, Binghamton, and Utica or Syracuse, where the (it would be nice to call this train the "Phoebe Snow") train would join with the Lake Shore. I think that there would be a patronage for this train as it would serve many College towns along its meandering route.

Again, this proposal has a snowball's chance in hell to actually happen, but I think it could work. Just My Humble Opinion.
  by JoeG
 
I guess n2cbo has been smoking those cigarettes not yet legal for recreational use in PA.
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