Budd Amfleet I Replacement Discussion

[tomj]

I would agree that it is time to get rid of the Amfleet cars if there weren't potential corridors like new ones in Ohio, the Northeast and Midwest that could be started or expanded. And its not like the Republicans will budget more than enough to replace the Amfleet cars, a small increase in fleet size would be a minor miracle knowing them. Trump might be convinced to go along with a larger car order, but given how the Democrats are treating the shutdown and how anti spending some Republicans are, a larger order is tall order.

[Greg Moore]

My understanding is despite any specific size quoted, the goal of Amtrak is really to setup a pipeline of 100-125 cars a year for 5 or more years. The idea being to give constant work for awhile, not just one big blip in orders.

If this does occur, then ideally states can add on in later years for more captive equipment, or Amtrak can expand the order down the road.

[east point]

Yes, most likely Siemens Vs coaches. At least Amtrak will have source of parts inventory to buy from, and design that has proven itself all over the world, rather than having to make parts themselves for a product that been out of production for decades.

There has been some push back from the committee that wrote many of the specifications. It appears there is a lack of spare parts mainly for the SC-44s from Siemens. Some can give the cite please?

[gokeefe]

Honestly, I think that the order should be for at least double that. Multiple reasons, for one, there is even better economies of scale. Furthermore, this gives the ability to make much more frequent service throughout much more of the country. More frequent service means that more people use because of induced demand, a law of economics, which is the reason that when highways are widened traffic gets worse.

It is worth remembering that Amtrak is in fact going to see fleet expansion during to the higher number of Acela trainsets from the Avelia Liberty order. This will displace cars from certain routes and allow for increased frequencies on others.

I suspect there will soon be a time when the only NEC train terminating in Washington will be the Acela.

[Backshophoss]

Seen it's about time Siemens and Cummings start getting spare parts out to where the chargers are in service already.
We might start seeing Cummings Dealer service trucks showing up trackside!
That should include parts for the coaches/cab cars for Virgin trains and Caltrans.

[Hawaiitiki]

https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/db-pr ... nce-train/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Potential Amfleet replacement?

DB says it has deliberately opted for a proven vehicle platform in order to optimise reliability through proven components and minimise lead times for the fleet.

Check

Each 255m-long set is formed of one multi-system electric locomotive and 17 coaches seating a total of 570 passengers including 485 in second class and 85 in first. DB says the trains will operate with diesel locomotives on non-electrified routes.

Check

[frequentflyer]

The latest

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents ... Update.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Train60]

Anyone have any idea where things stand with this procurement effort? These things of course take time, but its still amazing to watch the months just tick by.

[electricron]

https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/db-pr ... nce-train/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Potential Amfleet replacement?
DB says it has deliberately opted for a proven vehicle platform in order to optimise reliability through proven components and minimise lead times for the fleet.
Each 255m-long set is formed of one multi-system electric locomotive and 17 coaches seating a total of 570 passengers including 485 in second class and 85 in first. DB says the trains will operate with diesel locomotives on non-electrified routes.

You missed the quote about the 760 mm floor height (30 inches) which make these 18 inches lower than the platform heights. Therefore, a poor choice for the Northeast Corridor and its established 48 inches platform heights. Talgos by any other name are still Talgos.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Mr. Montrealer (Amtrak #60), we must accept that passenger equipment procurement is "a little bit different today" than it was back during '73 when the Amfleet I's were procured.

Back then, Budd simply said to the Board, "we have proven designs ready to go; namely carbodies from the Metroliners and undercarriage gear from the Pioneers. Sign on the dotted line and in two years you'll have cars. Take it or leave it".

Kind of like UENI walking into the car dealer.

But nowadays things have changed. There was no ADA fifty years ago; while of course necessary legislation, it has required axiomatic design changes to railcars. For example, should Amtrak ever order additional bi-level equipment, I'll bet at least one car in each consist will need be equipped with an elevator.

Finally, lest we forget, there is enough empirical evidence out there (and maybe some here might know first hand) that "Elephant", 400N Cap, 60 Mass, One Mass are all comprised of fiefdoms that are in perpetual war with one another. In such an environment, from which the private sector is hardly immune, the "who's on first" skit is first and foremost. One fief "purges" another, and what was to be done yesterday is "a 180" from what will be today.

Result; delay and confusion.

Someday there will be a B-School case study of this whole sorry debacle of the V-II procurement. I'm certain what has been immediately outlined will be a part of such.

[electricron]

Someday there will be a B-School case study of this whole sorry debacle of the V-II procurement. I'm certain what has been immediately outlined will be a part of such.

That case study should start with the V-I procurement. All Viewliners have been built to a design Amtrak owns from initial design to manufacturing floor changes. Every single one is therefore a custom build. Custom build is never cheaper than off the shelf.

[mtuandrew]

That case study should start with the V-I procurement. All Viewliners have been built to a design Amtrak owns from initial design to manufacturing floor changes. Every single one is therefore a custom build. Custom build is never cheaper than off the shelf.

It’s a procurement model that worked well for the N&W and the Milwaukee, which had their own manufacturing facilities. It would also have worked well if Amtrak had kept manufacturing in-house at Beech Grove, as they were forced to do with the V-I order (knowing that Amtrak would just be the general contractor and that subcontractors would do the lion’s share of the work, unlike the days of yore when the railroad got steel, bronze, glass and oil in one door and finished railcars out the other.)

Back then, Amtrak would have done much better to adapt a Budd or P-S heritage design as a sleeper. Amtrak could have even ordered a hybrid from Pullman, with a standard Comet frame, a pair of outside-equalizer GSC-70 trucks, a full complement of Comet-spec parts like windows, and a ballooned-out Viewliner-size body and it would have been a far simpler procurement. Coaches could simply have come straight off the Comet line as a large order of Horizons. Would have helped keep an American firm in business too.

[SouthernRailway]

Why wouldn't there be a Viewliner II Coach and a Viewliner II Lounge?

I will concede, though, that the Siemens-built Brightline coaches are super-nice and I'd gladly take them on Amtrak.

[gokeefe]

I've wondered the same myself and the simple answer at this point is "it's easier, cheaper and a better product".

Easier because Siemens cars are already designed. Cheaper because Viewliners would require a new assembly line and a better product because Siemens coaches have yet to have any (publicly) known issues with design and/or reliability.

New Viewliner types are effectively "custom" designed cars. In the era after U.S. car makers closed this was a really good solution. Having standard plans allowed Amtrak to find willing manufacturers who would build their design using an existing assembly line or manufacturing resources. It also helped to maintain some semblance of an attempt at standardized parts.

The arrival of Siemens in the U.S. has brought the return of the situation memorably described by Mr. Norman as "take it or leave it" to rolling stock acquisition.

Siemens is perhaps somewhat more flexible than Budd but overall it's a very similar situation.

[daybeers]

Anyone have any idea where things stand with this procurement effort? These things of course take time, but its still amazing to watch the months just tick by.

Final bids for Amfleet I Replacement were due Wednesday, November 20, 2019.