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  • Revisiting the "more auto train" idea

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1524448  by electricron
 
Again, someone returns to revisit an issue discussed here months ago. The solutions and problems expressed in the earlier thread are just as valid now as it was back then.

The existing Auto Train length can not be increased because of basic physics. Speed is expressed in terms like miles per hour, kilometers per hour, etc. Distance and time and speed are always related.
The Auto Train schedule shows a distance of 855 rail miles taking 17.5 hours to complete.
The schedule is set in stone; oversize vehicles must report by 2 pm, standard vehicles must report by 3 pm, the train departs at 4 pm, and the train arrives at 9:30 am. Then it can take a few hours to alight the train, 10:30 to 11:30. A few hours to restock and perform maintenance on the train is available before the return process begins anew at 2 pm. There is not a third train as backup at either station. It often takes days for a single late train to get back on the published schedule.

The train averages 48.8 mph. To extend the train to Baltimore adds about 85 miles to the distance. To extend the train to Philadelphia adds about 180 miles to the distance. At 50 mph, just to keep the math easier, to go the 85 miles to Baltimore the train needs an extra 1.7 hours, to go the 180 miles to Philadelphia, the train needs an extra 3.6 hours.
To keep to the same schedule, 4 pm departure and a 9:30 am arrival, the trains would have to average 53.7 mph to Baltimore, and 59.1 mph to Philadelphia.
Math follows: 940/17.5 = 53.7, 1035/17.5 = 59.1
As is, the Auto Train is Amtrak's fastest train running on long distance mostly single track rails, mainly because it is a non-stop train. How are you going to make it 5 or 10 mph faster on average on tracks owned mostly by CSX? That's the biggest gorilla you have to overcome - please explain how you will accomplish that!
 #1524466  by SouthernRailway
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:57 pm They went bust, Mr. SRY. How is the business model any different today?
There’s a larger population and thus more potential riders in certain areas.

Plus interest rates are far lower, and obtaining capital is easier.
Last edited by SouthernRailway on Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #1524467  by mtuandrew
 
Ron: a Baltimore-area move would require a number of things:
a) the Feds would have to help invest in CSX infrastructure, such as removing slow orders, increasing speeds (especially over the RF&P) and build yard bypasses where appropriate.
b) more importantly, Amtrak would have to speed up its loading and unloading procedures. I don’t know how they would do that, short of a larger facility with more Trackmobiles and more yard crew to break and assemble the train in smaller pieces (and load many cars simultaneously), and a much earlier start on car cleaning & servicing.

In the end, the existing service probably ought to have two spare trainsets anyway, which would more feasibly allow for an extended route.
 #1524476  by eolesen
 
Tadman wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:22 am It's also worth asking "what is the win here?". If a subsidised auto train were started on Illinois Corridor service or a medium corridor like Minneapolis or KC, would it make more sense than renting a car upon arrival? I bet it would cost more than $50/day to rent a small car. Perhaps the solution is to encourage development of Enterprise offices at major terminals instead.

It's worth discussing though, as it's not as dead of a concept as we think it is.
Rather than try to bring your own car, it's really a lot cheaper to rent at the destination...

Spot checking on Kayak.com, you can easily get a car for around $50 per day in places like ABQ, DEN, Orlando and MSP on the weekend. Weekday rates run a little higher but with volume and a negotiated rate, that can come down quickly.
 #1524485  by Suburban Station
 
electricron wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:54 pm Again, someone returns to revisit an issue discussed here months ago. The solutions and problems expressed in the earlier thread are just as valid now as it was back then.

The existing Auto Train length can not be increased because of basic physics. Speed is expressed in terms like miles per hour, kilometers per hour, etc. Distance and time and speed are always related.
The Auto Train schedule shows a distance of 855 rail miles taking 17.5 hours to complete.
The schedule is set in stone; oversize vehicles must report by 2 pm, standard vehicles must report by 3 pm, the train departs at 4 pm, and the train arrives at 9:30 am. Then it can take a few hours to alight the train, 10:30 to 11:30. A few hours to restock and perform maintenance on the train is available before the return process begins anew at 2 pm. There is not a third train as backup at either station. It often takes days for a single late train to get back on the published schedule.

The train averages 48.8 mph. To extend the train to Baltimore adds about 85 miles to the distance. To extend the train to Philadelphia adds about 180 miles to the distance. At 50 mph, just to keep the math easier, to go the 85 miles to Baltimore the train needs an extra 1.7 hours, to go the 180 miles to Philadelphia, the train needs an extra 3.6 hours.
To keep to the same schedule, 4 pm departure and a 9:30 am arrival, the trains would have to average 53.7 mph to Baltimore, and 59.1 mph to Philadelphia.
Math follows: 940/17.5 = 53.7, 1035/17.5 = 59.1
As is, the Auto Train is Amtrak's fastest train running on long distance mostly single track rails, mainly because it is a non-stop train. How are you going to make it 5 or 10 mph faster on average on tracks owned mostly by CSX? That's the biggest gorilla you have to overcome - please explain how you will accomplish that!
Not that I'm against track improvements but what if the second train runs philly/chester to jacksonville?
 #1524487  by DutchRailnut
 
It is my understanding that Amtrak has agreement with freight railroads not to expand the Auto train except on its own railroad.
Reason : freight rail unions see auto train as a freight train and outside the Amtrak charter.
as others have mentioned running Auto train further north has problems due to equipment used and time constraints.
The auto train just barely can make on time turn as it is, and adding trains single level and crews would hinder any financial gain.
 #1524489  by Tadman
 
electricron wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:54 pm Again, someone returns to revisit an issue discussed here months ago. The solutions and problems expressed in the earlier thread are just as valid now as it was back then.

Nah. I'm not talking about extending Auto Train, which is usually the focus of such discussion. I'm suggesting we discuss something similar in comparison to other operations around the world such as Motorail and the auto function on Nightjet. Those are decidedly not like Auto Train. Most are much shorter, some allow intra-route off loading, and some are corridor operations between major cities.

I'm also suggesting we quit framing discussion of the concept of auto-by-train with the Kentucy AutoTrain Corp. failure. That was 40 years ago. The world has changed immensely, the industry has changed immensely, and the management team made some pretty clear errors. Can you imagine trying to frame a discussion of the diesel by referring to a time when steam was the main power? "We can't run a diesel coast-to-coast, they tried running a steamer coast-to-coast in 1920 and it didn't work!". The magnitude of changes, although not as visible, have been the same. Consider IT advances, signaling advances, mergers, and now PSR and PTC.
eolesen wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:08 am Rather than try to bring your own car, it's really a lot cheaper to rent at the destination...

Spot checking on Kayak.com, you can easily get a car for around $50 per day in places like ABQ, DEN, Orlando and MSP on the weekend. Weekday rates run a little higher but with volume and a negotiated rate, that can come down quickly.
Ultimately this is my conclusion as well. Unless one is going on a 5+ day trip, it's probably cheaper to rent.

The questions RE motorail and such came to my mind after a drive from New Buffalo, near Chicago, to New Orleans. It was long and boring and there were quite a few times I wished I had motorail.
 #1524492  by SouthernRailway
 
Tadman wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:18 am
eolesen wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:08 am Rather than try to bring your own car, it's really a lot cheaper to rent at the destination...

Spot checking on Kayak.com, you can easily get a car for around $50 per day in places like ABQ, DEN, Orlando and MSP on the weekend. Weekday rates run a little higher but with volume and a negotiated rate, that can come down quickly.
Ultimately this is my conclusion as well. Unless one is going on a 5+ day trip, it's probably cheaper to rent.
Agreed, so an Auto-Train really works best if there are vacationers on long vacations at the destination, or people who spend a season at the destination.

Very few places in the US would meet that requirement.
 #1524511  by mtuandrew
 
A few criteria we need to meet, to run another Amtrak-style auto train service:
-autorack clearance on the route, which means...
-a few spare Superliner trainsets with which to start service, as well as a lot of Amtrak-pattern autoracks
-something like the NEC-Florida market with multiple metro areas within 4 hours drive on either end

Only additional ones that come to mind, to me, are NEC-Chicagoland, Chicagoland-Texas, and Chicagoland-California. Mr. Norman’s Victorville suggestion isn’t a bad idea at all.

As for Chicago, I found what I feel is a very good locale to serve the region effectively: BRC 87th Street Yard. Immediately off I-94, more or less unused and vacant, on a jointly-owned terminal railway, central to the suburbs (though slightly less convenient to points north), and right behind a shopping complex with many name-brand stores. (Amtrak would need to provide very good security of course, south side Chicago does still have high burglary rates.) But, that site could serve trains going in any direction.
 #1524513  by Ridgefielder
 
SouthernRailway wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:57 amAgreed, so an Auto-Train really works best if there are vacationers on long vacations at the destination, or people who spend a season at the destination.

Very few places in the US would meet that requirement.
The ones that spring to my mind:
-Northeast (NY Metro) <--> Florida (East Coast)
-Midwest (Chi/Detroit) <--> Florida (West Coast)
-Midwest (Twin Cities/Chi) <--> Arizona
-Northeast (DC/Philly/NYC) <--> Maine
 #1524522  by Arlington
 
eolesen wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:08 amRather than try to bring your own car, it's really a lot cheaper to rent at the destination...
unless you need a minivan. In Orlando renting them costs a fortune.
 #1524523  by ExCon90
 
I think what pushed Auto-Train over the edge were two factors: 1) a very serious derailment which took a lot of cars out of service; 2) undercapitalization--and that Louisville extension turned out to be an ill-advised addition. None of the above necessarily apply to the general concept. Mr. Norman's comments about overall trip length (congratulations on arewethereyetitis) are highly pertinent, however.
 #1524525  by lordsigma12345
 
SouthernRailway wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:57 am
Tadman wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:18 am
eolesen wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:08 am Rather than try to bring your own car, it's really a lot cheaper to rent at the destination...

Spot checking on Kayak.com, you can easily get a car for around $50 per day in places like ABQ, DEN, Orlando and MSP on the weekend. Weekday rates run a little higher but with volume and a negotiated rate, that can come down quickly.
Ultimately this is my conclusion as well. Unless one is going on a 5+ day trip, it's probably cheaper to rent.
Agreed, so an Auto-Train really works best if there are vacationers on long vacations at the destination, or people who spend a season at the destination.

Very few places in the US would meet that requirement.
I think if you could put auto carriers on one of the current Chicago - West Coast long distance trains it would be popular - not at the scale of the Auto Train, but a few of them. Would be tough to figure out how to do it in a feasible way operationally (and you'd probably only be able to take autos at the endpoints. the train would continue to serve its normal station stops for regular passengers.) I think a way to take your auto with you would be a boon to many Amtrak Long distance routes, but the logistics of doing so limit the ways you can do it.
 #1524526  by ExCon90
 
One problem with adding auto carriers to existing trains might be delays in adding the cars after departure and dropping them prior to arrival--the same problem that existed with the "boxcars" in the Warrington days. As far as I can tell, in Europe the autos are loaded on the flatcars at a location quite near--and sometimes at--the origin station and marshalled into the train prior to placement in the station for passengers, and the reverse after arrival at destination. How is this handled in Europe? And if not right at the station, after the autos are aboard the flatcars, how do the passengers get to the station to board the train?
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