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  • Amtrak and TRE Dispatching Fort Worth to Dallas

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1516039  by Tadman
 
electricron wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:47 pm
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:58 am Finally, as I noted at the Transit Forum, I was in Dallas now two weeks ago. I hadn't been there in thirty years, and was totally astounded how the region has embraced mass transportation since that time. I had expected that any Texan's idea of "mass transportation" was simply the three tons of mass representing a Silverado (aren't they made at a GM Texas plant?) transporting often just a driver at whatever velocity the driver wished. Also when landing, when I was there last, the visible suburban sprawl was cotton fields.
They build Escalades, Tahoes, and Denali(s) in Arlington, nor Silverados and Sierras. :)
Only 2%-3% of Texans ride public transit, but I suppose that is better than 1%.
I usually rent a truck when I'm in Texas (and most other places, too). But I try to ride transit in any big city. The problem I see with Texas public transport is this: Most of the light rail was built long ago and isn't in a comprehensive system except in Dallas. They're getting better, but have a long way to go. Further, the passenger train network is almost all long-distance trains, and few people (justifiably) want to rely on a 3x/week coming in from LA to get from San Antonio to Houston, for example.

The TRE and Tex Rail are a move in the right direction, but why do they stop in downtown Fort Worth when the population center (and a major university) are farther west? It's that old mentality of "everybody goes downtown" which isn't the case in Texas.

If I were to make a few changes to Texas rail transport, it might be this:

1. Double track TRE and extend to TCU or Lake Worth NAS.
2. The same for Texrail to Lake Worth or TCU.
3. Higher-speed rail between major cities - Dallas, Fort Worth, Austin, San Antonio, Houston, return.
4. Corridor trains to Oklahama and NOLA/Lafayette. 2x/day.
5. Make sure the Flyer has a connection up north to Dallas, which is 10x the size of Fort Worth.
6. Houston is another case entirely, that light rail is nice but useless other than riding to ball games or the rodeo. It should go to both airports, Galleria, maybe even Galveston or Woodlands.
 #1516051  by Gilbert B Norman
 
First, let it be noted that I completely defer to Electricron, who would appear to reside in the Metroplex and Mr. Dunville, who apparently frequently visits the region. For myself, I hadn't been there in thirty years and I can't imagine a set of circumstances again to bring up the family related journey I had last month.

I went there thinking that they had no more mass transit today than when there thirty years ago (that trip was drive, stay at Hyatt near the Union Station, having Dinner with a friend, next morning walked over to the Book Depository, and was gone within 15hrs). On that point I was indeed mistaken.

Now what strikes me from reviewing these postings is the number of apparently seperate transit agencies, such as Trinity Rail. Tex Rail, and DART, the HSR agency, as well as likeky others.

They do not seem to have a regional agency, which I must ask, is or isn't that a detriment to the development of coordinated mass transit?

Enquiring mind wants to know.
 #1516068  by Tadman
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:16 am
They do not seem to have a regional agency, which I must ask, is or isn't that a detriment to the development of coordinated mass transit?

Enquiring mind wants to know.
Off the cuff, I think there's pros and cons to having an umbrella org. On one hand, all the agencies in the DFW area are much smaller, even combined, than NJT or Metra. It might make sense to slim down the admins and procurements. On the other hand, there are a few distinct areas within the Metroplex that have much different values and relationships. Dallas, Fort Worth, and the north suburbs are all different, with much different cultures. Dallas is a bit like LA, Fort Worth is Fort Worth, and the suburbs are a bit like Columbus. If there were to be an umbrella org, there might be conflicts. There's a good reason Indiana doesn't just write Metra a check to run South Shore and ask for ridership numbers at the end of the year. That agency has their own problems and masters, and Indiana folks don't want them spilling over into managing our trains.

I could see Fort Worth having the same complaint were everything administered from Dallas.

Of course, I'm sure TXDot and USDOT serve as some sort of umbrella org as well.
 #1516110  by electricron
 
The unifying organization is the North Central Texas Council of Governments (NCTCOG) and its Regional Transportation Council when it comes to metropolitan scope transportation planning, environmental studies, and distributions of federal funds. Other areas within Texas have their own COGs or whatever they wish to call it.

State law, Texas Code of Transportation to be precise, determines who, how, what can fund transit with public money. DART (Dallas Area Rapid Transit) uses a regional section of the code, Trinity Metro (ex Fort Worth Transit Authority) uses a city section of the code, DCTA (Denton County Transportation Authority) uses a county section of the code, and other counties use other, especially rural, sections of the code. To show how complicated it is, Houston, Austin, San Antonio, and El Paso use different city sections of the code based upon population. Every section grants different transit agencies different powers. There is not one formula fitting every possible scenario. Texas does not collect taxes and allocate revenues like most states. Most taxes in Texas (specifically property and sales taxes) are collected by the counties and cities respectively, transferred to the state, then distributed by the states directly to individuals or redistributed back to the counties or cities for final distribution to individuals, agencies, and cities. About the only taxes Texas collects itself is via the Railroad Commission (by the way has nothing to do with railroads), which collects petroleum pumped out of the ground taxes, most of which is allocated to fund public education. Elected city or county government officials have more impact on individuals in Texas than the state. The legislature only meets for 6 months after an election every two years. City councils and county commissioners meet every week, at least every month.

DART, CapMetro, and Houston's Metro are the only transit agencies collecting a full penny sale tax to subsidize their operations. All the others collect a half penny or less, and some do not even collect sales taxes at all, getting funds directly from that city's or county's general fund. In every case sales taxes have been used, a referendum had to pass in each city by city. only about half the cities in Dallas County joined DART, cities that did not have no public transit or have contracted with DART to provide a very limited bus service paid from the general funds.

Only in recent years has TXDOT contributing any funds at all to transit projects, and it is on a case by case basis allocated specifically by the legislature. in every case TXDOT contributions have been relatively small.

To simplify, for DART or Houston Metro to grow into true regional transit authorities, every city they wish to service must pass a referendum granting them a full penny sales tax. If the referendum fails in any city, that city can not join. The only other tax the Texas Code of Transportation allows is a user tax from fares, the other local revenue source is from a city's general revenues or from a donation from a third party, usually a real estate developer wanting a station or stop.

I hope this helps.
 #1516123  by RRspatch
 
For those wanting more information on rail transit here in Texas or at least here in the DFW area the Dallas Fort Worth Urban forum has a Rail + Guided Transit sub forum which I have linked to below.

https://dallasmetropolis.com/dfwu/viewf ... e69bb5a267

There are separate sections on DART, TRE, TexRail, DCTA, The Silver Line and the Fort Worth T which is our local bus service.
 #1516125  by eolesen
 
mtuandrew wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:53 am Trinity Rail is an agency of DART if I’m not mistaken, but I can’t speak to the others like TexRail and the A-Train.
Sort of. Last I recall, FWTA and DART have joint ownership and representation. There's a long history when it comes to transportation and the cities of Dallas and Fort Worth...

I'll disagree that the Metroplex is embracing public transportation. I lived there for 14 years, and most people recognize that Dallas isn't representative of Texas... Some of the people who live there embrace it, but as already noted, only about 2% of the population is using DART or the TRE, and given how those networks are structured, they're meant to bring people into downtown Dallas and back. Even TRE is directionally scheduled to favor Dallas based on ridership. When the RDC's were running, they pretty much served the Fort Worth worker schedules, and the Bombardiers served the Dallas workers...

For the record, I rode TRE back in the early 2000's when it was rolled out, but only because I got an employer sponsored pass that was $80 for an entire year. It took twice as long to get to work, and I gave up once rates went up.
 #1516229  by twropr
 
Does the Texas Eagle still use the former Santa Fe station in Ft Worth? With the Trinity Express route is there still a backup move involved in reaching the station?
Thanks!
Andy
Jacksonville, FL
 #1516240  by njtmnrrbuff
 
I only rode the rail transit in the Dallas area on one trip to the Metroplex. I rode many DART routes, DCTA A-train, and Trinity Railway Express. From riding Trinity Railway Express, I found it to be a fast ride but I think it would be a million times better if more of the line was double track. That would not only benefit the Texas Eagle, but it would help other trains too. I am not sure how many people commute from Dallas to Ft. Worth or any of the intermediate towns along TRE. I wouldn't be surprised if many do. Commuting from Dallas to Fort Worth and vice versa is probably like commuting from Washington to Baltimore and vice versa. Having been to the Baltimore/Washington DC area numerous times since I have family and friends there-I have ridden MARC, especially the Penn Line. The stretch of the Penn Line from Baltimore Penn Station to Washington DC sees so many riders and those reverse peak trains do well. Between DC and Baltimore on the NEC, there are many stretches of three tracks and not many stretches of four tracks. There are a few stretches of two tracks, especially in the tunnels north and south of Baltimore. MARC runs an ok schedule between DC and Baltimore on the Penn Line for reverse peak trains but many of them skip many of the stops in between, especially Odenton, Halethorpe. The reverse peak schedule is good if you live in the District and work in Downtown Baltimore, but not if you live in many of the towns along the route. Maybe if TRE had more double track, they can run some more reverse peak trains and peak direction ones as well. It would also be nice to have TRE run regular Sunday service. MARC on the Penn Line between Baltimore Penn Station and Washington Union Station run weekend service and it has great ridership. I just wish there would be more weekend trains.
 #1516242  by electricron
 
twropr wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:56 pm Does the Texas Eagle still use the former Santa Fe station in Ft Worth? With the Trinity Express route is there still a backup move involved in reaching the station?
No, Amtrak uses the new ITC (intermodal transit center) train station built a quarter mile north of the old Santa Fe station. The Texas Eagles no longer need to do backup maneuvers.
Last edited by electricron on Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #1516273  by eolesen
 
There's actually a fair amount of double track in the Tarrant County portion of the line, but filling in the gaps doesn't make economic sense because the demand isn't there. There's also the problem of bridges... new bridges are needed over TX-360 and the Trinity River downtown.
 #1543399  by Tadman
 
eolesen wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:14 am
For the record, I rode TRE back in the early 2000's when it was rolled out, but only because I got an employer sponsored pass that was $80 for an entire year. It took twice as long to get to work, and I gave up once rates went up.
I used to work in Fort Worth. I took TRE a few times to Dallas for dinner when I thought there would be some heavy wine consumption. I had the same conclusion, it takes forever to get there. I would always uber back to Fort Worth.
 #1549553  by electricron
 
Tadman wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:59 am The TRE and Tex Rail are a move in the right direction, but why do they stop in downtown Fort Worth when the population center (and a major university) are farther west? It's that old mentality of "everybody goes downtown" which isn't the case in Texas.

If I were to make a few changes to Texas rail transport, it might be this:

1. Double track TRE and extend to TCU or Lake Worth NAS.
2. The same for Texrail to Lake Worth or TCU.
3. Higher-speed rail between major cities - Dallas, Fort Worth, Austin, San Antonio, Houston, return.
4. Corridor trains to Oklahoma and NOLA/Lafayette. 2x/day.
5. Make sure the Flyer has a connection up north to Dallas, which is 10x the size of Fort Worth.
1 & 2) TCU and points further south are on Texrail expansion plans. In fact, Texrail construction costs came in under budget around $50 Million, and they just received permission from USDOT to keep the surplus and use it to extend it to the Medical District south of downtown Fort Worth, which would be one station short of TCU. There is no railroad main line going to Lake Worth, but there is an industrial spur going as far to the Lockheed Plant from the old T&P mainline in west Fort Worth.
Hopefully, Texas Central HSR between Dallas and Houston will be built soon.
3) TXDOT will never find the funding to build Dallas to San Antonio, or Houston to San Antonio HSR lines. Look at the political hoops a private railroad has had to jump through getting permission to build a HSR line between Dallas and Houston.
4) Twice a day rail service to OKC and NOLA would require more financial funding from OK and LA than from TX. And come October, both the Eagle and Sunset will be thrice a week service. The Flyer remaining at a daily service should be considered a success.
5) Getting to points by rail north of Dallas is limited. To reach the rail line the Flyer uses, the train would have to turn east from just west of Denton off BNSF tracks, run east south east through the northern suburbs to Garland on KCS tracks, then turn southwest to the UP tracks the Eagle uses in east Dallas and reach downtown Dallas from the south. To go 30 miles, the train would have to go 50 miles using three different freight railroads' dispatchers. Meanwhile, the train could just go to Fort Worth on the same BNSF's dispatchers they have been using all the way from OKC. Doable, but impractical. Actually, it is better to just extend the Flyer from downtown Fort Worth to downtown Dallas over the TRE tracks, which Amtrak does twice a year on OU-UT Red River Rivalry football contest. Amtrak's existing deal with the TRE allows 3 extra trains per year, so for a daily Flyer service a new contract would have to be made. And by the way, Amtrak does not have a deal with KCS either.
 #1549611  by electricron
 
To add, while there maybe 70+ miles of commuter rail operations in the DFW area, none of it is on shared railroad tracks with freight railroad ownership. All 80+ miles to date is on tracks owned by DART or Trinity Metro. TexRail's future southern expansion is presently planned to share tracks with the FWWR on tracks owned by the FWWR. To date, UP and BNSF have been unwilling to share any tracks they own.
To be specific, TRE is 35 miles, DCTA is 21 miles, and TexRail is 27 miles.

The 35 miles of track the TRE uses was originally bought by the cities of Fort Worth and Dallas during the bankruptcy of the Rock Island RR, with both city leaders desiring a downtown to downtown train service. The land was later sold as cheaply as possible to their respective transit agencies when the train service process began. The Rock Island line once left Fort Worth north paralleling US 81 through Duncan, OK to points even further north. The Rock Island reached Houston via trackage rights from SP (ex Central Texas RR) via Bryan & College Station. The UP bought the ex Rock Island line north of Fort Worth, and there was technically no Rock Island line south of Dallas. Just the tracks between downtown Fort Worth and Dallas was free to be purchased - which was redundant for both the UP and BNSF.
DART bought all the Cotton Belt tracks in Tarrant, Dallas, and Collin counties from the UP, which maintained ownership of the parallel rail line of the ex T&P. DART also bought ex SP tracks in Dallas, Collin, and Greyson counties. Most of DART's light rail, DCTA, TRE, and TexRail were built on these lines DART and Trinity Metro bought decades ago as freight railroads went bankrupt or as they merged into larger railroad companies. Surplus freight lines were sold, therefore the remaining and existing freight lines are heavily busy with freight.
Any future passenger rail expansions not under construction today will probably have to be built in brand new corridors, or on brand new tracks within existing corridors - with the sole exception being sharing tracks on the FWWR line south of Fort Worth. And the major reason FWWR is willing to do so is because DART owns the tracks in north Fort Worth TexRail uses that FWWR needs to reach their major yard. You know, you scratch my back and I will scratch yours kind of situation.