Railroad Forums 

  • SEPTA Comprehensive Bus/Trolley Reform

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

 #1477234  by ChesterValley
 
Now I know this forum is on Railroading, but SEPTA functions (more or less) as an integrated system. Responding to 17 percent drop in bus ridership SEPTA has paid 250,000 for Jarett Walker's consulting to help address this. The report can be viewed overall here: http://www.septa.org/service/bus/network/index.html. The more comprehensive report can be found here: https://cloud.septa.org/s/ayAqdDchL2j7UOx As of this time of writing, the website is down.

Two points in this report:

The route 15 trolley should be Extended into 69th street either by rail or by bus conversion.
This problem could be fixed either by extending the Girard
trolley to 69th Street Transportation Center or, far less
expensively, by converting the trolley into a high-frequency
bus line.
Regional Rail should have more headway
Two major barriers prevent Regional Rail from playing a larger role. One
is the frequency of service. Figure 106 shows the midday headways
for the regional rail lines in the city. Most lines have hourly frequency,
which is worse than most bus service in the outer areas of the city...
 #1477252  by JeffK
 
According to the philly.com story, the "driving" force behind the idea of bustituting the 15 is that trolleys are being blocked by double-parked vehicles! If this is in fact a true reading of the plan, it makes me wonder what these expensive consultants are smoking. When did letting motorists flout basic traffic laws take precedence over good transit planning? If the PPA were doing their job, those double-parkers would be fined, towed, or shoved away. There's also the issue of the amount of money already invested in the 15's infrastructure that would effectively be tossed in the can just to accommodate a few selfish car and truck owners.

Let's hope the city puts this idea where it belongs.

And as far as some other, more rational parts of the analysis go, how much effort did it take to conclude that RRD headways are too infrequent and that transfer fees are counterproductive? Just about anyone on this board could have offered the same advice for far less money :P :P
 #1477254  by ExCon90
 
JeffK wrote:Just about anyone on this board could have offered the same advice for far less money :P :P
Maybe we didn't charge enough ...
Actually, it would make sense to extend the 15 to 69th St.; back in the days of the 56 SEPTA had problems with getting no cooperation from the city Streets Department to keep the tracks clear. Part of the recommendations should make clear that the city needs to be fully on board with this, not just SEPTA.
 #1477258  by ChesterValley
 
The report is back online, and it appears the report covers generally everything Ex-con is saying. By the looks of it, SEPTA might actually be serious about reforming some of their system in response to competition from Lyft/Uber. While I would fault them for paying for another study that tells them what they already know, I think its important to have this so when Harrisburg or City Hall questions some of the decisions they have evidence to point to like the regional rail stations raising home value. If anyone is looking for the 15, it's on page 88, regional rail integration is on page 83.
 #1477285  by NorthPennLimited
 
This is a great talking point.

In the suburbs, bus routes need updating, and should serve as feeders to regional rail.

In Montgomery county, we have circuitous bus routes, but no direct east/west service on the state roads.

The exception to this rule is the 55 bus serving route 611 (York Road / Easton Road).

There is no full-length service on route 63 (Welsh Road), Route 73 (Church Road / Skippack Pike), Route 202 (DeKalb Pike), Route 309, route 532, Route 13, Route 113, Route 132 (Street Road), Route 152 (Limekiln Pike), Route 463 (Horsham Road), Route 29, etc.

Most of the begin / end points on the Suburban Montgomery County seem like a hodge-podge.

(139 bus connects Phoenixvile -Limerick)
( 91 bus connects Norristown to Graterford Prison)
( 94 bus connects Fort Washington to Lansdale)
( 22 bus parallels the Warminster Line)

You get my drift.

Perhaps a more cohesive suburban grid system with train service running north/south and east/west bus service in Montgomery County would get more usage, with shuttle buses connecting train stations to corporate business parks and malls.

Thinking outside the box is definitely a good thing. To illustrate the absurdity, I chose a trip from the intersection of Roosevelt Blvd and Woodhaven Road to Hatfield, Pa. Normally this trip would take 40 minutes by automobile driving up Rt. 63 (Welsh Road).

Using public transportation........over 4 hours!!!
14 bus
MFL
Doylestown train
132 bus
 #1477296  by ChesterValley
 
Regarding the bus division, What stands out to me the most is his attack on the transfers. He states that as a result of the transfer, the routes are longer which increases delays and amplifies a reduction in ridership. By eliminating those long route and have more concentrated high frequency sectors, it can increase the efficiency of resources by reducing vehicles and manpower.

Regarding Regional Rail, "The other major barrier is the higher fare. Regional Rail fares are distance
based using a zone system. Within the city most stations are
within Zones 1 and 2 and single ride tickets (purchased prior to boarding)
are $5.25 during the day on weekdays or $4.25 on weekday
evenings (after 7 pm) or weekends. The fare for travel to intermediate
stations without going through Center City is only $3.75. Tickets purchased
on the train cost $0.25-0.75 more."

By the sound of it I think Regional Rail needs an overhaul itself. While SEPTA works well at rush hour, As a frequent rider off peak almost all his points ring true. I have tried to convert people to Regional Rail, but the most cited things are 1. It's not frequent enough and 2. It's not reliable enough. Those are reasons why I've had people balk at the Paoli line!
 #1477326  by BuddCar711
 
ChesterValley wrote:By the sound of it I think Regional Rail needs an overhaul itself. While SEPTA works well at rush hour, As a frequent rider off peak almost all his points ring true. I have tried to convert people to Regional Rail, but the most cited things are 1. It's not frequent enough and 2. It's not reliable enough. Those are reasons why I've had people balk at the Paoli line!
Well the training of conductors need an overhauling itself. Apparently they don't know that a Zone 1 TrailPass is valid between Center City and Torresdale during off-peak hours (after 9:00am inbound and before 4:00pm and after 7:00pm outbound). I have challenged this twice with my Zone 2 (and both times I've won). I told them if it happens again, I'm puttng up a YouTube video.
 #1477337  by MACTRAXX
 
Everyone: Interesting study...But - will SEPTA actually implement some of these suggested
changes to improve the system overall?

Regional Rail: Does SEPTA have enough crews - specifically Engineers (remember-without them
there is no Railroad Division) to allow for service increases?

Instead of storing equipment some likely can be used to increase headways on lines that have
ridership increases especially in the Monday thru Friday daytime hours...

Over time SEPTA has instituted hourly service on most routes off peak. By taking a look at PRR/PC
and RDG schedules into the Conrail years service was provided differently back in the years before
SEPTA took direct control of the RRD in 1983. Busy routes such as Paoli and Lansdale traditionally
had even more frequent service which continues into the present day.

Transit: Transfers are a major problem - especially with SEPTA seeking to eliminate all transfers
for cash/token users to charge a full $2.50 fare for each vehicle. This is probably the prime reason
that there has been and will be ridership losses for the bus system in particular. This will likely
force low-income riders in particular - especially those who can not afford an alternate transport
service such as a Uber or Lyft vehicle - to stay on as few vehicles as possible to avoid transfers.

NPL: Interesting choice of trip between Northeast Philadelphia and Hatfield - as you point out a
direct routing via PA 63 would take around 45 minutes to an hour by car (longer during busier
weekday or prime shopping hours) and that a SEPTA trip via CCP would take four hours...

There is an alternate bus route - #77 - that operates between Roosevelt Boulevard westbound to
Chestnut Hill operating hourly from the RB/Cottman Avenue area. The 77 directly serves five RRD
stations: Ryers, Jenkintown, Glenside, Wyndmoor and CH West. One option would be to ride the
Lansdale Line between Jenkintown and Lansdale transferring then to the 132 bus - or - from CH
transferring to the 94 bus and then the 132 at Montgomery Mall. The trouble here is that either
option is going to take time depending on how much time is allowed for each transfer.
(14-77-RRD Jenkintown to Lansdale-132 OR 14-77-94-132)

I am very familiar with routes running between Northeast Philadelphia and the North Penn area
having relatives living in each and having to use all modes (driving and public transit) to travel
between them...

BC: Interesting problem concerning off peak pass use on the Trenton Line...I have used a Zone 1
pass on that line off peak and never had any problem remembering the AM Peak hour restriction
going to Center City and the PM Peak hour times going towards Torresdale. I remember that any
Bucks County station (Cornwells Heights and north) will be extra fare and recall asking a relative
of mine once to drop me off at Torresdale instead of CWH for that very reason...

MACTRAXX
 #1477389  by ChesterValley
 
MACTRAXX wrote: Regional Rail: Does SEPTA have enough crews - specifically Engineers (remember-without them
there is no Railroad Division) to allow for service increases?
According to this website http://www.septa.org/service/rail/impro ... ining.html SEPTA has 208 Engineers with 14 assitant conductors in training. I don't know what any of those numbers mean relative to SEPTA's logistics but there is a hard count.
 #1477396  by JeffK
 
MACTRAXX wrote:Transit: Transfers are a major problem - especially with SEPTA seeking to eliminate all transfers for cash/token users to charge a full $2.50 fare for each vehicle. This is probably the prime reason that there has been and will be ridership losses for the bus system in particular. This will likely force low-income riders in particular ... to stay on as few vehicles as possible to avoid transfers.
It’s already a significant problem on routes that rationally should be feeders to the BSS and MFSE. Years ago there was a kerfuffle over the C bus when SEPTA proposed a surcharge for the part of its route parallel to the BSS. They had data showing that the C is overcrowded because the cost of transfers causes riders to stay on the bus rather than switching to the subway ... of course their "fix" was to propose a punitive surcharge rather than a positive incentive like a special free transfer.

And I agree 100% that the situation's gonna be a good deal worse once the ill-conceived "no Key, no transfer" policy goes into effect. It may not hit a lot of people but many of those affected will be the least able to afford it: low-income riders who are under- or un-banked and/or with minimal internet access, who can’t maintain the needed "float" on a Key.
Regional Rail: Does SEPTA have enough crews - specifically Engineers (remember-without them there is no Railroad Division) to allow for service increases?
Staffing availability and cost are definitely a stumbling block. However... it’s not the RRD, but it seems to me that the current half-hourly scheduling on the NHSL is NOT dictated by those factors. Most consists are two cars, which requires two operators, so why not run single cars every 15 or 20 minutes? I’ve talked to a couple of people at 1234 who seemed fixated on service averages instead of absolute frequencies, but this seems so blatantly unbalanced that I really wonder what their justification is.
But - will SEPTA actually implement some of these suggested changes to improve the system overall?
I’m not holding my breath.
 #1493589  by pjabowling
 
I think the first step Septa should make in bus reform is the purchase/ lease of the lot at 8th and Market St.

This lot could become the new Center City Transit Terminal (CCTT). Many of the bus routes that clog traffic downtown could be rerouted there allowing faster transfers between routes.

Along the stretch between City Hall and Penn's Landing between there should be 1 or 2 new bus routes that just complete that loop on Market, Chestnut and Walnut Streets. Septa should offer this service for free, yes free. This would allow for all door boarding and keep the bus moving. For once we could use the articulated buses for something useful.

Add a building on the back end of the property and you could move the existing Greyhound terminal for easier connections. Add a few spots for NJ Transit and reduce the number of stops it makes on Market St.

With a free ride along Market St to the CCTT you can now eliminate some of the intermediate stops for the other routes along Market, Chestnut and Walnut Streets expressing those routes in/out of the center of town. If the bus doesn't have to stop at every corner the bus only lanes we once had make a lot more sense.

Close 8th and 9th street between Market and Chestnut to vehicle traffic except for buses and deliveries.

Build the missing paid area walkway from the MFL to the BSL Spur for free interchange.

From 8th and Market you could make transfers to the MFL,BSL Spur, Patco, NJ Transit, Regional Rail,most Center City bus routes and access the Fashion District Mall.
 #1493599  by mcgrath618
 
pjabowling wrote:I think the first step Septa should make in bus reform is the purchase/ lease of the lot at 8th and Market St.

This lot could become the new Center City Transit Terminal (CCTT). Many of the bus routes that clog traffic downtown could be rerouted there allowing faster transfers between routes.

Along the stretch between City Hall and Penn's Landing between there should be 1 or 2 new bus routes that just complete that loop on Market, Chestnut and Walnut Streets. Septa should offer this service for free, yes free. This would allow for all door boarding and keep the bus moving. For once we could use the articulated buses for something useful.

Add a building on the back end of the property and you could move the existing Greyhound terminal for easier connections. Add a few spots for NJ Transit and reduce the number of stops it makes on Market St.

With a free ride along Market St to the CCTT you can now eliminate some of the intermediate stops for the other routes along Market, Chestnut and Walnut Streets expressing those routes in/out of the center of town. If the bus doesn't have to stop at every corner the bus only lanes we once had make a lot more sense.

Close 8th and 9th street between Market and Chestnut to vehicle traffic except for buses and deliveries.

Build the missing paid area walkway from the MFL to the BSL Spur for free interchange.

From 8th and Market you could make transfers to the MFL,BSL Spur, Patco, NJ Transit, Regional Rail,most Center City bus routes and access the Fashion District Mall.
A few issues with this:
1. SEPTA cannot lease or purchase that plot. That site is currently zoned CMX-5 under the city's zoning code, which is the highest a property can receive. There is no way that the city would let SEPTA slap a bus terminal there. Someone already owns it (I believe Goldstein) who intends to develop the lot as momentum continues along east market, after they're done with their other projects. That site can support a supertall, and I think the plans the developers have for it include a building at least close to that sort of scale. The only reason nothing has been there since Gimble's is because the last projects proposed there were failed casino pitches.
3. A free bus route along Market from City hall makes no sense, both fiscally and functionally. We have the El. It works fine. Trains are always crowded. Why take any of that away with a free bus route (which would only stand to add more traffic congestion).
4. A new Greyhound terminal is already planned to be built as part of the 30th St. Station district plan. The station will house Megabus, Greyhound, Bolt, and any other bus companies that may sign on (including NJT).
5. The last time they closed a street for pedestrians and public transit only in this city it nearly killed Chestnut Street. We do NOT need that again.

I agree that there needs to be a free transfer between the El and Broad Street lines. Hell, throw in PATCO too.
That lot is going to be built on soon. It's the best spot in the city for a supertall, as it is right above the only place in the city where all three subway lines meet, it's just a few blocks from Market East and Reading Terminal, it's along a corridor that is being rapidly developed, and it's hyooooooge. It's only a matter of the current owners pouncing on the opportunity when the time is right (which should happen in two years, if they are to be believed).
 #1493620  by MACTRAXX
 
PJAB: These are my thoughts following up on what MCG has already replied to:

1-The former Gimbels Department Store property is no doubt quite valuable Center City real estate.
Building a bus terminal would require SEPTA to purchase at least part of that property - and with its
high value (I fully agree about the thought as being a future site for a possible supertall skyscraper)
the price tag would be far too high to make this site worthwhile for any SEPTA bus facility. Another
use that had fallen through comes to mind - This site was proposed for a Disney complex of some
type a number of years ago...It surprises me that this site has remained undeveloped since the old
Gimbels store was torn down decades ago...

2-A Center City "Free" zone on buses is an interesting idea - I believe PAT in Pittsburgh has a free
zone in the Golden Triangle/Downtown in which no fare is needed - if your ride takes you outside
this zone a fare is paid. The trouble with a fare setup like this is that it would need to be enforced
to insure that fares are paid by those that are riding to outside of the CCP zone and that homeless
people and others out to try and beat the fare not become a problem on buses. With SEPTA's fare
mentality of "every dime every time" it is highly unlikely any no-fare zone would ever be tried.

3-Building a paid area walkway connection between the Market-Frankford Line and Ridge Avenue
Spur Line at 8th Street Station is a good idea linking both SEPTA rapid transit services there. With
PATCO having a different fare system there could be something set up for Freedom Card and Key
riders to allow at minimum a reduced rate transfer between SEPTA and PATCO...

4-The mid 1970s vintage "Chestnut Street Transitway" was unfortunately a problem practically from
the beginning. Search "Chestnut Street Transitway History" and one can find articles written about
this failed mass transit experiment and how it never met expectations. In the late 1990s the street
was re-opened to other vehicles and still has the two lane limitation from its Transitway days...

MACTRAXX
 #1493695  by ExCon90
 
The whole idea of a Chestnut St. Transitway was based on the expected completion of a crosstown Interstate expressway occupying the entire territory between South St. and Bainbridge St. from river to river, with a parking garage at Chestnut St. on each end, including access ramps to I-76 and I-95. There was to be a streetcar line on Chestnut St. from one garage to the other, featuring make-believe heritage-type cars providing free hop-on-hop-off access in both directions along the entire route. None of that was ever done (no regrets about not building that expressway), but they banned automobiles from Chestnut St. anyway -- that and some hazardous brick pavement for pedestrians being all that was ever done; a textbook example of making major changes to a project and then going ahead with the rest of it without considering the inevitable unintended consequences.