Penn Station N.Y.C. and Hudson tunnel capacity

[CLamb]

I keep hearing in the news that the Hudson River tunnels and Pennsylvania Station N.Y.C. are being used to capacity. It is hard to believe that more trains and passengers are using these facilities than in the golden age of railroads. What was the peak usage of these facilities?

Thanks,

Charles P. Lamb

[nittany4]

that does seem odd

but who knows, maybe half of it was abandoned at some time and now the other half is at capacity - plus i'm sure NJT has lots of trains in and out each day.

cheers

[Nasadowsk]

None of the tunnels into NYP, nor the station itself, are abandoned. Wha'ts happening is you have a LOT more NJT traffic. Remember, there's now M&E (Ex EL) traffic, plus no more Exchange place on the water.

It's only 2 tunnels.

There's also a lot of LIRR trains, plus NJT feeds from Sunnyside, so all 4 tunnels THERE are at capacity.

One could argue with Amtrak's dispatching skills, or lack thereof, but still, traffic as a whole in/out of NYP is quite heavy. Remember, even though it's Amtrak's busiest station, they're maybe 10% of the total (if that much).

I wouldn't be surprised if on a pure passenger boarding comparison, Penn is at historic highs or even above.

You seriously have to see a few heavy rush hours to soak in how many people use it. And GCT isn't far behind, either (but, wasn't the NY Central always #2?

[John Laubenheimer]

In the olden days, there was very little suburban traffic (from NJ) in/out of Penn. The 2 tunnels to the west conveyed mostly the long-haul trains of the PRR & LV. Today, you have the ex-PRR NJT trains (formerly terminating at Jersey City/Exchange Place), some ex-ERIE NJT Midtown Direct trains (formerly terminating at Jersey City/ERIE Terminal, later Hoboken/Lackawanna Terminal), and some ex-CNJ NJT trains (formerly terminating at Jersey City/CNJ Terminal). The route is 2 trains from Penn to the Secaucus Transfer station (4-5 miles out), collapsing again to 2 tracks until the PATH station at Harrison, about 1/2 mile from Newark. Then, it's 4-6 tracks all the way to Philadelphia! Going east, you have 4 tracks worth of tunnels; 2 usually assigned to AMTRAK and 2 usually assigned to MTA/LIRR. Trains do share the tunnels, although more MTA/LIRR trains share the AMTRAK tunnels, due to sheer numbers. And, there are a LOT of MTA/LIRR trains! MTA/LIRR uses tracks 17-21 at PENN at all times, down as far as track 13 during rush hours. (13-14 are rare; 15-16 common.)

[nittany4]

maybe it's time to build a NEW railroad tunnel!

what a novel thought...

[John Laubenheimer]

There's been some talk about an additional tunnel, as well as a dedicated freight tunnel to New Jersey. Money is the primary issue. A secondary issue, with regard to PENN STATION, is that there are only 21 tracks total, and it would be very difficult to correct that situation. That is why there's a plan underway to more some (a lot?) of the MTA/LIRR trains to GRAND CENTRAL, which has excess track capacity. Money is an issue here also, but the tunnel (under the water, at least) is already in place. This one might actually happen!

[timz]

In the 1930s-1950s there were around 120-125 scheduled weekday departures westward from NY Penn; I'm guessing there were never more than 130. Count them up in the timetables now.

[E-44]

From what I understand, thre would be no decrease in LIRR traffic to NYP after the opening of ESA to GCT. That GCT traffic would be incremental.

As for 125 daily westbounds back in the '30's - '50's, commuter traffic was already largely transitioned from Jersey City to NYP, although NJCL and Midtown Direct hadn't happened yet.

A quick (and I probably missed some) count of NJT and Amtrak westbounds on a weekday shows 140 NJT and 20 Amtrak.

LIRR alone brings 240,000 people through the station daily and NJT at least that and probably more, with NEC (former PRR main) ridership growing at three times the pace of other NJT lines (although there is a lot of intrastate riderhsip now with the Secaucus Transfer station - not all NEC traffic goes to or originates in NYP).

The commuter trains have higher passenger density than the LD trains did and I suspect that the 500,000+ daily riders that go through the station is considerably higher than even the peak years of WWII.

So 88% of the traffic is "commuter" and that means short headways between Newark and NYP especially at peak times. PRR's LD westbounds were not bunched as tightly. I believe that at peak hours, tunnel headway is shrinking to about 2.5 when all 25 hourly slots are used. One hiccup and the whole system is stalled. And in the "old days" PRR could still divert trains to Exchange Place if the tunnel was congested or down (but the ferry ride was pretty scenic.)

We need the new tunnel and more room (at track level and above) in NYP.

PS - I do not believe that there was ever a time when any of the six tunnels were abandoned. Closed at times for repair, but never abandoned.

[pennsy]

Hi All,

Mention was made about the East River tunnels to Sunnyside yards. This is where I heard that there was talk, possibly plans, to add additional tunnels, or at the very least, upgrade the existing tunnels.

[PRRTechFan]

E-44 wrote:

As for 125 daily westbounds back in the '30's - '50's, commuter traffic was already largely transitioned from Jersey City to NYP, although NJCL and Midtown Direct hadn't happened yet.

What is now the NJCL was known in Pennsy days as the New York and Long Branch Railroad. It was operated jointly with the CNJ from Woodbridge to Bay Head Junction. Up until the 40's, the PRR continued south from Bay Head to Seaside Heights where it turned west and crossed the bay to Toms River, and then crossed the state to join other also now-defunct PRR branches near Pemberton. Another PRR branch joined the NY&LB at Sea Girt, headed west through Farmingdale, Freehold, Jamesburg to the Main Line at Monmouth Junction.

While the PRR Freehold Branch reached Sea Girt first (1880's), the NY&LB reached Sea Girt and Manasquan in the 1890's. PRR ran their trains to Woodbridge then via the PRR Perth Amboy & Woodbridge Branch (PA&W) to the Main Line at Union Interlocking in Rahway. From there, the Pennsy/NY&LB trains shared Jersey City and Penn Station NY as destinations just like the rest of the PRR. The PA&W and NY&LB were electrified as far as South Amboy along with the PRR main line in the 30's.

The CNJ also operated their NY&LB trains from Bay Head to Woodbridge; but at Woodbridge the CNJ continued on their own tracks via Elizabethport. Many trains terminated at the CNJ terminal in Newark, only a couple of blocks from Newark Penn Station.

In the late 60's, CNJ NY&LB trains were routed over the PRR routing to the main line and terminated at Penn Station Newark.

Today, the NJCL is what used to be the NY&LB and PA&W, the PRR main line is the NEC, and NJCL trains still follow the same PRR routing from the 1890's; except that Jersey City is no longer a destination. So while the NJT Midtown direct trains are a very recent addition to Penn Station New York, at least some NJCL trains have terminated at NYP since the 30's