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  • Question about Penn Central lines between Indy & St. Lou

  • Discussion relating to the Penn Central, up until its 1976 inclusion in Conrail. Visit the Penn Central Railroad Historical Society for more information.
Discussion relating to the Penn Central, up until its 1976 inclusion in Conrail. Visit the Penn Central Railroad Historical Society for more information.

Moderator: JJMDiMunno

 #248784  by Drewrail
 
Hello To all members,

I have a couple of questions about the freight traffic and routes between Indianapolis and St. Louis on the NYC and PRR during the pre and post merger era.

What types of industries were located on these lines and what car type did they use for their transportation? Also, I know that each line might be different but were trains handled with only one crew between these two points? Were their any yards located between these two points?

I’m looking to model one of these two lines in a post merger setting. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

 #249261  by Dieter
 
Big Four - They didn't have trackage into St. Louis, but running rights? Anybody?
 #250461  by ChiefTroll
 
Dieter wrote:Big Four - They didn't have trackage into St. Louis, but running rights? Anybody?
Big 4 / NYC owned the railroad between Indy and Bridge Jct, at East St. Louis. Big 4 Passenger trains had running rights on the Terminal Railroad Association of St. Louis (TRRA) to Union Station.

Freight train crews, and (I think) all engine crews changed at Mattoon, the HQ of the Illinois Division. I think I remember that passenger train crews (but not engine crews) ran through between Indy and St L. Freight trains terminated in East St. Louis.
 #250471  by jg greenwood
 
Drewrail wrote:Hello To all members,

I have a couple of questions about the freight traffic and routes between Indianapolis and St. Louis on the NYC and PRR during the pre and post merger era.

What types of industries were located on these lines and what car type did they use for their transportation? Also, I know that each line might be different but were trains handled with only one crew between these two points? Were their any yards located between these two points?

I’m looking to model one of these two lines in a post merger setting. Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
We're going back almost 35-years here, some info may be sketchy at best.
In 1969 after returning from the military I worked the Rose-Lake (ESTL) to Effingham local. Effingham, by the way, is the only yard on the former PRR side between Terre Haute and Rose Lake. We worked a Pet-Milk and a organ (musical) facility at Highland, IL. Around Greenville, IL. was a ball-bearing plant. I'm sure there were other industries, I can't recall them though.
In 1972 I was furloughed from Rose Lake and went to Terre Haute and Avon to work. At that time the old Big-4 side was used for both manifest and intermodal trains. Yards west of Terre Haute on the green side: Paris, Mattoon, Hillsboro and Worcester (SP?), IL. Worcester was just north of where Lenox Tower is. In 1974 I worked a six-day per week local that ran from Hillsboro to Worcester and returned to Hillsboro. I recall no crew-changes between Avon and ESTL, on either side, for thru-freight. The distance from Avon to Rose Lake was around 241-miles. Down the green side, 260?. I guess this was before the track started deteriorating as I can recall 6-7 hour trips on manifest trains on a regular basis.
The old flexi-van trains ran the 240-miles from Rose Lake to Avon in a tad bit more than 4-hours. That's almost a 60-MPH average, respectable time for sure. Sorry I can't provide more info.
Could be the Pet-Milk facility was in Greenville? And I also seem to recall a box-board plant in Highland. 1969 was too many years ago.........

I just drove over by the old box-board plant. (M.P. 209)There are remnants of a stub-track into the facility. Directly across from it is the organ plant. There's no evidence that the old PRR ever serviced this spot. I apologize for the misinformation. Could be possible the mind is the first thing to go. :wink:
Last edited by jg greenwood on Mon May 29, 2006 2:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

 #250635  by shlustig
 
Prior to the PC merger, NYC ran short pools both directions to and from Mattoon (Avon / Mattoon and St. Louis /Mattoon) while PRR ran long pool between Indy and St. Louis.

Following the PC merger, NYC crews began running the full distance.

The merger plans called for using the NYC route predominantly westbound and the PRR route predominantly eastbound between Tere Haute and St. Louis. All traffic used the NYC east of Terre Haute to Avon.

In order to cross-qualify all of the crews, trains were leaving Avon with the normal crew consist plus engineer and conductor pilots for the new territory to be covered. If NCB-1 had a PRR engine and train crew, it would also have NYC C&E pilots for the east end and the west end. The pilots would stay on board for the full run to St. Louis in order to qualify on that part of the line for which they were not yet qualified. If it had an NYC west end crew, they required east end pilots as well as PRR pilots.

Since we were still using plenty of F-units (both A's and B's), there often was a shortage of seats. At one point, we had a series of NYC pool cabooses that had about 8 seats and were used for handling DH crews on routes that lacked any passenger service pressed into service.

The traffic was booming, and on occasion we would get up to BF-3F or -G, the 6th or 7th section of that train in a day. That was in addition to the regular NCB, 2 MP's, and other daily trains out of Avon for the St. Louis gateway.
 #254824  by Matt Langworthy
 
NYC also had a small yard called West Yard near Indy to handle local traffic, including a GM plant. PC eventually transferred its operations to a former PRR yard, called Transfer.

NYC used TRRA's Lower Yard in St. Louis for piggyback traffic, but most manifest freights were pre-blocked at the Big Four Yard in Avon, IN. PRR's freight was classified at Rose Lake, but traffic began to delcine there when the Alton & Southern (the switching carrier in St. Louis) began preblocking trains for direct transit to the Buckeye Yard in Columbus. Rose Lake then used its additional space for excess TOFC traffic.
 #254950  by jg greenwood
 
Matt Langworthy wrote:NYC also had a small yard called West Yard near Indy to handle local traffic, including a GM plant. PC eventually transferred its operations to a former PRR yard, called Transfer.

NYC used TRRA's Lower Yard in St. Louis for piggyback traffic, but most manifest freights were pre-blocked at the Big Four Yard in Avon, IN. PRR's freight was classified at Rose Lake, but traffic began to delcine there when the Alton & Southern (the switching carrier in St. Louis) began preblocking trains for direct transit to the Buckeye Yard in Columbus. Rose Lake then used its additional space for excess TOFC traffic.
Some clarification here: The NYC had their own yard in East Saint Louis. What you refer to as the "lower yard" was not owned by the TRRA. Traffic at Rose Lake declined when the A&S built a connection from their main into the PRR Exermont yard east of Rose Lake & HN Cabin. Traffic that formerly came into Rose Lake went directly to Exermont, bypassing the yard. This happened around 1972 and caused five of us to be furloughed from Rose Lake.